Everywhere, the personality, individuality, is predominant

Bhagavad-gita 2.8-12
--
Los Angeles, November 27, 1968

Prabhupada: Read. Hare Krsna. Yes, Second Chapter.
Devotee: Start at verse 8. “I can find no means to drive away this grief which is drying up my senses. I will not even be able to destroy it if I win an unrivaled kingdom on the earth with sovereignty like the demigods in heaven. Sanjaya said: Having spoken thus, Arjuna, chastiser of the enemy told Krsna, Govinda, ‘I shall not fight,’ and fell silent. O descendant of Bharata, at that time Krsna, smiling in the midst of both the armies, spoke the following words to the grief-stricken Arjuna. The Blessed Lord said...”

Prabhupada: So when we become very serious in a dangerous position, as if we are lost, but Krsna smiles. You see? Sometimes we think... This is called illusion. The same example, just a man in dreaming, crying, “There is tiger, there is tiger. It is eating me,” and the man who is awakened, he smiles, “Where is the tiger?” (chuckles) “Where is the tiger?” And this man is crying, “Tiger, tiger, tiger.” Similarly, when we are very much perplexed... Just like the politicians, they are sometimes perplexed in political situation and claiming, “This is my land, my country,” and other party also claiming, “It is my land, my country,” and they are fighting very gravely. Krsna smiles. “What these nonsense are claiming ‘my country, my land’? It is My land, and they are claiming ‘my land’ and fighting.” Actually, the land belongs to Krsna, but these people, under illusion, claiming, “It is my land, it is my country,” forgetting how long he shall belong to this country or this nation. That is called illusion.

So this is our position. Without understanding our real position we are perplexed with these all worldly problems, which are all false. Janasya moho ’yam aham mameti [SB 5.5.8]. Moha, moha means illusion. This is the illusion. So everyone is under this illusion. So one who is intelligent, if he can understand that this worldly position is simply illusion... The, all the thoughts which I have concocted, based on the principle of “I” and “mine,” this is all illusion.

So one, when one is intelligent to get out of the illusion, he surrenders to a spiritual master. That is being exemplified by Arjuna. When he’s too much perplexed... He was talking with Krsna as friend, but he saw that “This friendly talking will not solve my question.” And he selected Krsna... Because he knew the value of Krsna. At least, he ought to have known. He is friend. And he knows that Krsna is accepted... “Although He is acting as my friend, but by great authorities Krsna is accepted as the Supreme Personality of Godhead.” That was known to Arjuna. So he said that “I’m so much puzzled that I cannot understand. Even accepting that I shall be victorious in this battle, still I shall not be happy. What to speak of being victorious on this planet, if I become the king of all other planets or if I become a demigod in the higher planetary system, still this distress cannot be mitigated.” You see?

Devotee: Verse 11: “The Blessed Lord said: While speaking learned words you are mourning for what is not worthy of grief. Those who are wise lament neither for the living nor the dead.” Purport: “The Lord at once took the position of a teacher and chastised his student, calling him indirectly a fool. The Lord said, ‘You are talking like a learned man, but you do not know that one who is learned, one who knows what is body and what is soul, does not lament for any stage of the body, neither in the living nor in the dead condition.’

As explained in the later chapters, it will be clear that knowledge means to know matter and spirit and the controller of both. Arjuna argued that religious principles should be given more importance than politics or sociology, but he did not know that knowledge of matter, soul and the Supreme is more important than religious formularies. And because he was lacking in that knowledge, he should not have posed himself as a very learned man. As he did not happen to be a very learned man, he was consequently lamenting for something which was unworthy of lamentation. The body is born and is destined to be vanquished today or tomorrow. Therefore the body is not as important as the soul. One who knows this is actually learned. For him there is no cause for lamentation in any stage of the material body.”

Prabhupada: He says, Krsna says, that “This body, either dead or alive, has nothing to be lamented.” Dead body, suppose when the body is dead, it has no value. What is the use of lamenting? You can lament for many thousands of years, it will not come to life. So there is no cause of lamenting on dead body. And so far spirit soul is concerned, that is eternal. Even it appears to be dead, or with the death of this body, he does not die. So why one should be overwhelmed, “Oh, my father is dead, my such and such relative is dead,” and crying? He’s not dead. This knowledge one must have. Then he’ll be cheerful in all cases and he’ll be interested simply in Krsna consciousness. There is nothing to be lamented for the body, either alive or dead. That is being instructed by Krsna in this chapter. Go on.

Devotee: “Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings. Nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.” Purport: “In the Vedas, in the Katha Upanisad, as well as in the Svetasvatara Upanisad, it is said that...”

Prabhupada: (correcting pronunciation) Svetasvatara. There are many Upanisads, they are called Vedas. Upanisads are the headlines of the Vedas. Just like in a chapter there is a headline, similarly these Upanisads are the headlines of the Vedas. There are 108 Upanisads, principal. Out of that, nine Upanisads are very important. So out of those nine Upanisads, Svetasvatara Upanisad, Taittireya Upanisad, Aitareya Upanisad, Isopanisad, Isa Upanisad, Mundaka Upanisad, Mandukya Upanisad, Kathopanisad, these Upanisads are very important. And whenever there is argument on some point, one has to give reference from these Upanisads.

If one can give reference from the Upanisads, then his argument is very strong. Sabda-pramana. Pramana means evidence. Evidence... If you want to gain in your case... Just like you have to give very nice evidence in a court, similarly, according to Vedic culture, the evidence is pramana. Pramana means evidence. Sabda-pramana.

There are three kinds of evidences accepted by the learned scholars in Vedic culture. One evidence is pratyaksa. Pratyaksa means direct perception. Just like I am seeing you, you are seeing me. I am present, you are present. This is direct perception. And there is another evidence which is called anumana. Suppose in that room, and I am coming just now, I do not know whether any person there is or not. But there is some sound, I can imagine, “Oh, there is somebody.” This is called anumana. In logic it is called hypothesis. That is also evidence. If by my bona fide suggestions I can give evidence, that is also accepted.

So direct evidence, and, what is called, hypothesis or suggestion evidence. But the strong evidence is sabda-pramana. Sabda, sabda-brahman. That means Vedas. If one can give evidence from the quotation of the Vedas, then it has to be accepted. Nobody can deny the Vedic evidence. That is the system.

How it is so? Caitanya Mahaprabhu has given very nice example. That is in the Vedas. Just like we keep conchshell in the Deities’ room. Conchshell is considered very pure, transcendental; otherwise, how we can keep before Deity and you blow conchshell? You offer water with conchshell. How you can offer? But what is this conchshell? The conchshell is the bone of an animal. It is nothing but bone of an animal.

But the Vedic injunction is that if you touch the bone of an animal, you’ll have to take bath immediately. You become impure. Now one may say, “Oh, this is contradiction. In one place it is said that if you touch the bone of an animal, then you have to purify yourself by taking bath immediately, and here, the bone of an animal is in the Deities’ room. So it is contradiction, is it not? If bone of an animal is impure, how you can place it in the Deities’ room? And if bone of an animal is pure, then what is the meaning of becoming impure and take bath?” You’ll find similar contradiction in the Vedic injunctions. But because it is said by the Vedas that bone of an animal is impure, you have to accept. But this bone of an animal, conchshell, is pure. Just like sometimes our students are perplexed when we say that onion is not to be taken, but onion is a vegetable. So sabda-pramana means the Vedic evidence should be taken in such a way that no argument. There is meaning; there is no contradiction. There is meaning. Just like several times I have told you that cow dung. Cow dung is, according to Vedic injunction, is pure.

In India it is actually used as antiseptic. In villages especially, there is large quantity of cow dung, and they’re, all over the house they have smeared to make the house antiseptic. And actually after smearing cow dung in your room, when it is dried, you’ll find refreshed, everything antiseptic. It is practical experience. And one Dr. Ghosh, a great chemist, he examined cow dung, that why cow dung is so much important in the Vedic literature? He found that cow dung contains all the antiseptic properties. In Ayur-veda, cow dung dried and burned into ashes is used as toothpowder. It is very antiseptic toothpowder. Similarly, there are many things, many injunctions in the Vedas, which may apparently appear as contradiction, but they are not contradiction.

They are on experience, on transcendental experience. Just like a father says to his child that “My dear child, you take this food. It is very nice.” And the child takes it, believing the father, authority. The child knows that “My father...” He is confident that “My father will never give me anything which is poison.” Therefore he accepts it blindly, without any reason, without any analysis of the food, whether it is pure or impure. You have to believe in such a way. You go to a hotel because it is licensed by the government.

You have to believe when you take foodstuff there it is nice, it is pure, or it is antiseptic, or it is... But how do you know it? The authority. Because this hotel is authorized by the government, it has got license, therefore you believe. Similarly sabda-pramana means as soon as there is evidence in the Vedic literature, “This is this,” you have to accept. That’s all. Then your knowledge is perfect because you are accepting things from the perfect source. Similarly Krsna, Krsna is accepted as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Whatever He says, it is all right. Accept. Arjuna said at last, sarvam etad rtam manye [Bg. 10.14]. “My dear Krsna, whatever You say I accept it.” That should be our principle. Why should we bother about researching when the evidence is there from the authority?

So to save time, to save trouble one has to accept the authority, actual authority. This is the Vedic process. And therefore Veda says, tad vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Tad vijnanartham, in order to learn that transcendental science, one has to accept guru. Gurum eva, certainly, one must. Otherwise there is no possibility. Therefore Krsna is accepted here as the spiritual master of Arjuna, and as the spiritual master or father or teacher has got right to chastise his son or disciple...

A son is never dissatisfied when father chastises. That is the etiquette everywhere. Even the father is sometimes violent, the child or the son tolerates. A typical example is Prahlada Maharaja. Innocent child, Krsna consciousness child, but father torturing. He never says anything. “All right.” Similarly Krsna, just after taking the position of the spiritual master, is designating Arjuna as a grand fool. Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu also said that “My spiritual master found Me a great fool.”

Was Caitanya Mahaprabhu a fool? And can it be possible that anyone can become the spiritual master of Caitanya Mahaprabhu? Both things are impossible. Caitanya Mahaprabhu, even not accepting Him as incarnation of Krsna, if simply you accept Him as ordinary scholar or man, there was no comparison of His scholarship. But He said that “My spiritual master found Me a great fool.” What is that meaning? That “A person, even in My position, always remains a fool before his spiritual master.

That is good for him.” Nobody should impose that “What do you know? I know better than you.” This position is not, denied. And other point is, from the disciple’s point of view, why he should remain always a fool before a person? Unless he’s actually authorized, actually so great that he can teach me as a fool.

One should select a spiritual master in that way and as soon as the spiritual master is selected, one should remain always a fool, although he may not be a fool, but the better position is like that. So Arjuna, instead of remaining on the same level as friend and friend, voluntarily accepting to remain a fool before Krsna. And Krsna is accepting that “You are a fool. You’re talking just like a learned man, but you are a fool because you are lamenting on a matter which no learned man laments.” That means “A fool laments,” that “You are a fool. Therefore you are a fool.” It is in a round about way... Just like, what is called in logic? Parenthesis? Or something like that, called. Yes. That if I say that “You look like that person who stole my watch,” that means “You look like a thief.” Similarly, (chuckles) Krsna, in a round about way, says that “My dear Arjuna, you are talking just like learned man, but you are lamenting on a subject matter which no learned man laments.” Go on.

Devotee: “In the Svetasvatara Upanisad it is said that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the maintainer of innumerable living entities, in terms of their different situations according to individual work and reaction to work. That Supreme Personality of Godhead is also, by His plenary portions, alive in the heart of every living entity. Only saintly persons, who can see within and without the same Supreme Personality of Godhead, can actually attain to perfect peace eternal. The same Vedic truth enumerated herein is given to Arjuna and in that connection to all persons in the world who pose themselves as very learned but factually have very poor fund of knowledge. The Lord says clearly that He Himself, Arjuna, and all the kings who are assembled in the battlefield are eternally individual beings and that the Lord is eternally the maintainer of the individual living entities.”

Prabhupada: What is the original verse? You read.

Devotee: “Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings...”

Prabhupada: Now, “Never there was a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor these people.” Now He analytically says, “I, you, and...” first person, second person, and third person. That is complete. “I, you, and others.”

So Krsna says, “Never there was a time when I, you, and all these persons who have assembled in this battlefield did not exist.” That means “In the past, I, you, and all of them, they individually existed.” Individually. The Mayavadi theory is that the ultimate spirit is impersonal. Then how Krsna can say that “Never there was a time when I, you, and all these persons never existed”? That means, “I existed as individual, you existed as individual, and all these persons who are before us, they existed as individuals. Never there was a time.” Now, what is your answer, Dinadayala? Krsna says never we were mixed up.

We are all individuals. And He says, “Never we shall remain... Never there will be time when we shall not exist.” That means in the past we existed as individuals, in the present there is no doubt we are existing as individual, and in the future also, we shall continue to remain as individuals. Then when the impersonal conception comes at all? In the past, present, future, there are three times. Huh?

In all the times we are individuals. Then when God becomes impersonal or I become impersonal or you become impersonal? Where is the chance? Krsna clearly says, “There was never time when I, you, and all these individual kings or soldiers... It was not that we did not exist in the past.” So in the past we existed as individual, and in the present there is no doubt. We are existing as individual. You are my disciple, I am your spiritual master, but you have got your individuality, I have got my individuality. If you don’t agree with me, you can leave me. That is your individuality. So if you don’t like Krsna, you cannot become in Krsna consciousness, that is your individuality. So this individuality continues. Similarly Krsna, if He does not like you, He may refuse you Krsna consciousness. Not that because you are following all the rules and regulations, Krsna is obliged to accept you. No. If He thinks that “He’s nonsense; I cannot accept him,” He’ll reject you.

So He has got individuality, you have got individuality, everyone has got individuality. Where is the question of impersonalism come? There is no possibility. And if you don’t believe Krsna, you don’t believe Vedas, apart from anything else, Krsna is accepted as the supreme authority, the Personality of Godhead. Then if we don’t believe Him, then where is the possibility of advancing in knowledge? There is no possibility of it. So there is no question of individuality. This is the statement of authority. Now, apart from statement of authority, you have to apply your reason and arguments.

Can you say anywhere there is agreement between two parties? No. You go, study. In the state, in the family, in the community, in the nation, there is no agreement. Even in the assembly, even in your country. Suppose there is Senate, everyone has got country’s interest, but he’s thinking in his individual way.

One is thinking that “My country’s welfare will be in this line.” Otherwise, why there is competition during election of president. Everyone is saying that “America needs Nixon.” And another person, he also says, “America needs me.” So, but why two? If America you, and you are both... No. There is individuality. Mr. Nixon’s opinion is something else. Mr. another candidate’s opinion is something else. In the assembly, in the Senate, in the Congress, in the United Nations, everyone is fighting with his individual view. Otherwise why there are so many flags in the world? You cannot say anywhere impersonalism. Personality is predominating everywhere. Everywhere, the personality, individuality, is predominant. So we have to accept. We have to apply our reason, arguments, and accept the authority. Then the question is solved. Otherwise it is most difficult.

Devotee: “The Supreme Personality of Godhead is the Supreme Individual Person, and Arjuna, the Lord’s eternal associate, and all the kings assembled there are individual eternal persons. It is not that they did not exist as individuals in the past, and it is not that they will not remain as eternal persons. Their individuality existed in the past and their individuality will continue in the future without interruption. Therefore there is no cause for lamentation for any one of the individual living entities. The Mayavadi or impersonal theory that after liberation the individual soul, separate on account of maya or illusion, will merge into the impersonal Brahman without individual existence...”

Prabhupada: Now, the Mayavadi says that this individuality is maya. So their conception is that spirit, the whole spirit is a lump. Their theory is ghatakasa potakasa. Ghatakasa potakasa means... Just like sky. The sky is an expansion, impersonal expansion. So in a pot, in a waterpot, in a pitcher that is closed... Now, within the pitcher, there is also sky, a small sky. Now as soon as the pitcher is broken, the outside, the bigger sky, and the small sky within the pitcher mixes.

That is Mayavada theory. But this analogy cannot be applied. Analogy means points of similarity. That is the law of analogy. The sky cannot be compared... The small sky within the pitcher cannot be compared with the living entity. It is material, matter. Sky is matter, and individual living entity is spirit. So how you can say? Just like a small ant, it is spirit soul. It has got its individuality. But a big dead stone, hill or mountain, it has no individuality.

So matter has no individuality. Spirit has individuality. So if the points of similarity differ, then there is no analogy. That is the law of analogy. So you cannot analogize with matter and spirit. Therefore this analogy is fallacious. Ghatakasa potakasa. Then another evidence is in the Bhagavad-gita. Krsna says that mamaivamso jiva-bhuta. “This individual souls, they are My part and parcel.” Jiva-loke sanatanah. And they are eternal.

That means eternally they are part and parcel. Then when... How this Mayavada theory can be supported, that due to maya, being covered by maya, they are now appearing individual, separate, but when the covering of maya will be taken away, they will mix up just like the small sky within the pitcher and the big sky outside mixes? So this analogy is fallacious from logical point of view, as well as from authentic Vedic point of view. They are eternally fragments. There are many other evidences from Bhagavad-gita. Bhagavad-gita says that spirit cannot be fragmented. So if you say that by covering of maya the spirit has become fragment, that is not possible. It cannot be cut.

Just like if you cut one big piece of paper into small fragments, it is possible because it is matter, but spiritually it is not possible. Spiritually, eternally, the fragments are fragments, and the Supreme is Supreme. Krsna is the Supreme, and we are fragmental parts. We are fragments eternally. These things are explained in Bhagavad-gita in different places very nicely. I request you all to keep one copy of this Bhagavad-gita, every one of you, and read it carefully. And there will be examination in the coming September. So... Of course, that is voluntary. But I request you to prepare for the examination next September. And one who will pass the examination will get the title Bhakti-sastri. Have you distributed that... Yes. Go on.

Devotee: “Nor is the theory that we only think of individuality in the conditioned state supported herein. Krsna clearly says that in the future also the individuality of the Lord and others as it is...”

Prabhupada: Krsna never says that after liberation these individual souls will mix up with the Supreme Soul. Krsna never says in the Bhagavad-gita.

Devotee: “Krsna clearly says that in the future also the individuality of the Lord and others, as it is confirmed in the Upanisads, will continue eternally. This statement of Krsna is authoritative.”

Prabhupada: Yes, Upanisad says nityo nityanam. Now, nitya means eternal, and the Supreme Lord is the supreme eternal, and we individual souls, we are also many eternals. So He is the leader eternal. Eko bahunam... How He is leader? Eko bahunam vidadhati kaman. That one, singular number eternal, person, He is supplying all the needs of other eternals. These things are clearly said in the Vedas.

And actually we are experiencing. Just like in Christian theology, the individual goes to the church and prays God, “Give us our daily bread.” Why he’s asking God? Of course, this atheist class of men are now teaching them, “Where is bread? You are going to church. You come to us; we shall supply you bread.” So this Vedic thought is there also. The Vedas say, eko bahunam vidadhati kaman.

That supreme one eternal, He’s supplying, He’s maintaining all other individual eternals. And Bible also enjoins that “You go, ask for your bread to God.” So unless God is maintainer and supplier, why this injunction is there? Therefore He is the leader; He is the maintainer. And the Vedas clearly says this is the position. He is the Supreme. And by knowing this one can become in peace. That is the Vedic injunction. Go on.

Devotee: “This statement of Krsna is authoritative because Krsna cannot be subject to illusion. If individuality...”

Prabhupada: Yes. If the Mayavadi philosopher says that this statement of Krsna is in maya, that “He says that ‘Everyone was individual in the past.’ No, in the past everyone was one, lump sum, homogeneous. By maya, we have become individual.” If the Mayavadi says like that, then Krsna becomes one of the conditioned souls. He does not...

He loses His authority. Because conditioned soul cannot give you the truth. I am conditioned soul. I cannot say something which is absolute. So Krsna is accepted as the Absolute. So if the Mayavadi theory is accepted, then Krsna’s theory has to be rejected. If Krsna is rejected, then there is no need of reading Krsna’s book, Bhagavad-gita. It is useless, waste of time. If He’s a conditioned soul like us...

Because we cannot take any instruction from a conditioned soul. So the spiritual master, even if you take that he is conditioned soul, but he does not speak anything from his own side. He speaks from Krsna’s side. So unless... The Vedic principle is that unless one is not liberated from the material conditions, he cannot give us any perfect knowledge.

The conditioned soul, however he may be academically advanced, educated, he cannot give us any perfect knowledge. Only one who is above the condition of these material laws, he can give us the perfect knowledge. Similarly Sankaracarya, he’s also impersonalist, but he accepts Krsna the supreme authority. Sa bhagavan svayam krsna. “Krsna is that Supreme Personality of Godhead.”

The modern Mayavadi philosophers, they do not disclose this statement of Sankaracarya. To cheat people. But Sankaracarya’s statement is there. We can give evidence. He accepts Krsna as the supreme authority. He has written so many nice poems praising or worshiping Krsna. And at the last time he says, bhaja govindam bhaja govindam bhaja govindam mudha-mate. “You rascal fools.

Oh, you are depending on grammar to understand. This is all nonsense.” Bhaja govindam. “Just worship Govinda.” Bhaja govindam bhaja... Three times he says. “Just worship Govinda.” Bhaja govindam bhaja govindam bhaja govindam. Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu says three times, harer nama harer nama harer nama [Adi 17.21]. Three times means giving too much stress. Just like we sometimes say, “You do this, do this, do this.” That means no more denial. Finish all stress. So as soon as one thing is three times stressed, that means final. So Sankaracarya says, bhaja govindam bhaja govindam bhaja govindam mudha-mate. Mudha, mudha I’ve several times explained.

Mudha means rascal, ass. You are depending on your grammatical understanding, dukrn karane. Dukrn, these are grammatical affix and prefix, pratya, prakarana. So you are depending on this verbal root, that verbal root, and creating, interpreting your meaning in a different way. All this is nonsense. This dukrn karane, your grammatical jugglery of words, will not save you at the time of death. You rascal, you just worship Govinda, Govinda, Govinda. That is the instruction of Sankaracarya also. Because he was a devotee, he was a great devotee. But he pretended to be an atheist because he was to deal with the atheists. Unless he presents himself as an atheist, the atheist followers will not hear him. Therefore he presented Mayavada philosophy for the time being. The Mayavada philosophy cannot be accepted eternally. The eternal philosophy is Bhagavad-gita. That is the verdict. Go on.

Devotee: “If individuality is not a fact, then Krsna would not have stressed it so much even for the future.”

Prabhupada: Yes. He says that there was no such time when we are not individual, and there will be no such time in the future when we shall not remain individual. And so far present is concerned, we are all individual. You know. So where is the possibility of losing individuality? Become imperson? No. There is no possibility.

This voidism, impersonalism, they are artificial ways of negating the perplexing variegatedness of this material existence. That is the negative side only. That is not a positive side. A positive side is that, as Krsna says, tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9]. “After giving up this material tabernacle, one comes to Me.” Just like after leaving this room, you have to enter another room. You cannot say that “After leaving this room, I shall live in the sky.”

Similarly, after leaving this body, if you go to Krsna in the spiritual kingdom, your individuality will be there, but you’ll have that spiritual body. When there is spiritual body there is no perplexities. Just like your body is different from the body of the aquatics. The aquatics, they have no disturbance in the water because their body is made like that. They can live there peacefully. You cannot live.

Similarly, the fishes, if you take them out of the water, they cannot live. Similarly, because you are spirit soul, you cannot live peacefully in this material world. This is foreign. But as soon as you enter into the spiritual world, your life is eternal, blissful and full of knowledge, real peace. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. Krsna says, “After leaving this body, he does not come to this perplexities of material world.” Mam eti, “He comes to Me.” “Me” means His kingdom, His paraphernalia, His associates, everything.

If some rich man or some king says, “All right, you come to me,” that does not mean that he’s impersonal. If a king says, “Come to...” means that he has got his palace, he has got his secretary, he has got his nice apartment, everything is there. How he can be imperson? But he says only, “Come to me.” This “me” means everything. This “me” does not mean impersonal. And we get information from Brahma-samhita, laksmi-sahasra-sata-sambhrama-sevyamanam surabhir abhipalayantam [Bs. 5.29]. So He’s not impersonal. He’s raising cows, He’s with hundreds and thousands of goddesses of fortune, His friends, His paraphernalia, His kingdom, His house, everything is there. So there is no question of impersonalism. Yes.

Devotee: “The Mayavadi may argue that the individuality spoken of by Krsna is not spiritual but material. Even accepting the argument that the individuality is material, how can one distinguish Krsna’s individuality?”

Prabhupada: They also think of Krsna, therefore, as material. That is also condemned by Krsna. You’ll find, avajananti mam mudha manusim tanum asritam [Bg. 9.11]. “Because I have appeared just like a human being, these rascals deride at Me that I am also one of them.” Mudha. Mudha means rascal. Just like Dr. Radhakrishnan says, “It is not to Krsna. Krsna... It is the soul within the Krsna.” That means he identifies Krsna as one of us. His body and His soul different. But Krsna is not... Krsna said, sambhavamy atma-mayaya [Bg. 4.6]. “I appear in My own, original stature. I do not change.” We change. The individual soul... Prakrteh kriyamanani. He’s conducted by, influenced by this prakrti, nature, but He’s not conducted or influenced by the nature.

He comes in His own influence, as He is, atma-mayaya. This is the distinction. Therefore He does not change body. When I come, I change bodies. This time I may have this body; next time I may have another body. That is material, and therefore I forget. Just like Krsna says in the Fourth Chapter that “Many times you and I came. You have forgotten.” Because we change our material body therefore we forget. These things all will be explained. Go on.

Devotee: “Krsna affirms His individuality in the past and confirms His individuality in the future also. He has confirmed His individuality in many ways, and impersonal Brahman has been declared as subordinate to Him. Krsna has maintained spiritual individuality all along, and if He is accepted as an ordinary conditioned soul in individual consciousness, then His Bhagavad-gita has no value as authoritative scripture.

A common man with all the defects of human frailty is unable to teach that which is worth hearing. Bhagavad-gita is above such literature. No mundane book compares with the Bhagavad-gita. When one accepts Krsna as an ordinary man, the Bhagavad-gita loses all importance.

The Mayavadi argues that the plurality mentioned in this verse is conventional and that the plurality thus refers to the body. But previous to this verse such a bodily conception has already been condemned. After condemning the bodily conception of living entities, how was it possible for Krsna to place a conventional proposition on the body again? Therefore, the plurality is on spiritual grounds as is confirmed by great teachers like Sri Ramanuja.

It is clearly mentioned in many places in the Bhagavad-gita that this spiritual plurality is understood by those who are devotees of the Lord. Those who are envious of Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead have no bona fide access to the great literature. The nondevotee’s approach to the teachings of the Bhagavad-gita is something like a bee licking on a bottle of honey. One cannot have a taste of honey unless one can taste within the bottle. Similarly, the mysticism of the Bhagavad-gita can be understood only by devotees. No one else can taste it, as is stated in the Fourth Chapter of the book. Nor can the Gita be touched by persons who envy the very existence of the Lord. Therefore the Mayavadi explanation of the Gita is a most misleading presentation of the whole truth. Lord Caitanya has forbidden us to read commentaries made by the Mayavadis.”

Prabhupada: Yes. Lord Caitanya has clearly said, mayavadi-bhasya sunile haya sarva-nasa. One meets disaster if he hears a Mayavadi philosopher to understand Vedic literature. That is His injunction. Mayavadi-bhasya sunile haya sarva-nasa. Sarva-nasa means disaster. It is actually disaster. A mayavadi-bhasya, Mayavadi commentary, they have simply tried, (that) the individual, tiny individual spiritual spark that “You are the Supreme.” So he’s just (like) Dr. Frog. You see. So puffed up, puffed up, when he... At one time, it will burst. Therefore it is disastrous. It is disastrous. (chuckling) Mayavadi-bhasya sunile haya sarva-nasa. So that’s all. Finished? Yes. Oh, not yet?

Devotee: “Therefore the Mayavadi explanation of the Gita is a most misleading presentation of the whole truth. Lord Caitanya has forbidden us to read commentaries made by the Mayavadis and warns that one who takes to understanding of the Mayavadi philosophy loses all power to understand the real mystery of the Gita. If individuality refers to the empirical universe, then there is no need for teachings of the Lord. The plurality of the individual souls and of the Lord is an eternal fact, and it is confirmed by the Vedas as above mentioned.”

Prabhupada: So you read very carefully Bhagavad-gita. You have to meet so many opposing elements; so you have to argue and convince them. Hm. (sankirtana party enters and offers obeisances)

So Catch Him Very Tightly

Sri Isopanisad,
Mantra 8--
Los Angeles, May 12, LA

Prabhupada: (chants verse, etc)

sa paryagac chukram akayam
avranamasnaviram suddham apapa-
viddhamkavir manisi paribhuh
svayambhuryathatathyato ’rthan
vyadadhac chasvatibhyah samabhyah

So this verse, you’ll read what is important. “Such person must know in fact the greatest of all, who is unembodied, omniscient...” That is the distinction between God and ourself. We are embodied. This body is different from me; therefore when I leave this body, this body becomes “Dust thou art, dust thou...” That thou means this body. I am not dust. I am spirit soul. So Krsna is not embodied. He has no difference between His body and His soul. His soul and body, the same. He does not change His body, because He hasn’t got material body. And because He does not change body, He remembers everything.

We change body; therefore we do not remember what had happened in our last birth. We have forgotten who was... Just like even in sleep, when we forget our body, we forget our all, I mean to say, environments. While sleeping or dreaming, you are in a dreamland. You don’t remember even that you have got this body.

Every day, every night, this is being experienced. Because this body, I’m not body. The body becomes tired. It sleeps or it is inactive. But as I am, I work, I dream, I go somewhere, I fly, or I go, I create another kingdom, another body, another environment. This we experience every day, every night. It is not difficult to understand. Similarly, in every life, we create a different environment. In this life I may think I am Indian.

You may think you are American. Or next life, a different position. Next life, I may not be American, or I may not be Indian. And if I, even I, I become American, I may not be a man. I may be a cow or bull. Then I am sent to the slaughterhouse. You see? This is going on. This is the problem. Always changing bodies. Bhutva bhutva praliyate.

It is serious position. We should very..., take this life very seriously, that “I’m changing my body life after life. I have no fixed position. I do not know where I am put within these 8,400,000 species of life. So I must make a solution.” And that solution is... Krsna says, yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama [Bg. 15.6].

Mam upetya kaunteya duhkhalayam asasvatam, napnuvanti mahatmanah: [Bg. 8.15] “If anyone, some way or other, by developing Krsna consciousness, he comes to Me, he hasn’t got any more to go back and accept a material body.” He gets the same body as Krsna, sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah [Bs. 5.1].

So we should very seriously execute this Krsna consciousness. Without any deviation, very seriously. We should not be neglectful, that this is fashion or something imposed. No. This is the most important function. Human life is meant simply for developing Krsna consciousness. He has no other business. But unfortunately we have created so many engagements so that we forget Krsna consciousness. This is called maya. This is called maya. We are forgetting our real business. We are engaged in different, so many businesses. Misleaders. Andha yathandhair upaniyamanah. The rascal, blind leaders are leading to hell. Te ’pisa tantryam uru-damni-baddhah.

All of them are tied up by the stringent rules and regulations of the material nature. And they have become leader. They do not like any authority. This is called maya. This is called maya. They are being misled; still they are following that. This is called maya.So try, some way or other, you have come in contact with Krsna. So catch Him very tightly. Mam eva ye prapadyante mayam etam taranti te. If you catch very tightly Krsna’s lotus feet, then maya will not be able to do any harm.Thank you very much. Chant Hare Krsna. (end)

Purusha and Prakrti

Pusta Krsna: "This cosmic manifestation, the material world, is also Your body. By Your potential energy known as kala-sakti, this total lump of matter is agitated, and thus three modes of material nature are manifested. In this way You become awakened from the bed of Ananta-Sesa, and from Your navel a small transcendental seed is generated, from which the gigantic universe becomes manifest. Exactly like the small seed of banyan tree, the lotus flower of the cosmic manifestation is grown up."

Prabhupada: These verses of Srimad-Bhagavatam, they are Vedic mantras. They're not ordinary wording, set of wording. It is not. Veda-mantra, samhita. So every one of you must try to chant. This is required. Each verse of Bhagavad-gita or Srimad-Bhagavatam, they are Vedic mantras, veda-mantra. So simply by chanting them we become purified. So every one of you... There is diacritic marks, literation, transliteration, so everyone should try to chant the mantra. That is very beneficial. That is kirtana. Kirtanad eva krsnasya [SB 12.3.51]. Everything is being chanted in relationship with Krsna, with reference to Krsna.

So this material world is explained

,tasyaiva te vapur idam nija-kala-saktyasancodita-prakrti-dharmana atma-gudhamambhasy ananta-sayanad viramat-samadhernabher abhut sva-kanika-vatavat mahabjam [SB 7.9.33]

Vatavat mahabjam. Abjam means flower, lotus flower? Yes. So this is the description of Garbhodakasayi Visnu. Karanodakasayi Visnu and then Garbhodakasayi Visnu and then Ksirodakasayi Visnu, trin, three Visnus. First of all from... I have several times explained, from Krsna, then expansion, Balarama, then catur-vyuha, Sankarsana, Pradyumna, Aniruddha, like that. Then Narayana, then dvitiya catur-vyuha. From dvitiya catur-vyuha, Vaikuntha, Sankarsana, then Purusa, Purusa-avatara. These Purusas are three. In the Bhagavad-gita Arjuna recognized Krsna as purusa. Purusam sasvatam adyam. So He's the purusa. God is purusa, male. God is not female. Female... The sakti, that is female, prakrti.

In the Bhagavad-gita also it is mentioned, prakrtir me astadha, bhinna prakrtir me astadha. This material nature is separated energy, divided into eight elements: earth, water, air, and fire, then ether, mind, intelligence and ego. These are all prakrti, material. Bhinna me prakrtir astadha. Bhinna. Bhinna means separated. There is not direct connection, but another prakrti, that is... Apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakrtim para [Bg. 7.5]. This is inferior energy, material elements, and there is superior element, prakrti. That is also prakrti. We are prakrti. Prakrti means under the control of the purusa. That is natural.

We cannot conceive equal rights of purusa and prakrti. That is not Vedic conception. Vedic conception is purusa, the superior, Supreme, and prakrti means subordinate. Purusa is predominator, and prakrti is predominated. So we living entities, we are prakrti. Falsely if we try to become purusa, that is maya. We should remain prakrti, subservient, predominated. That is this Krsna consciousness movement. Because generally the people are misled, thinking himself as purusa, "I am the enjoyer." But that is not the fact. That false ego, that "I am enjoyer," that is false ego. And real ego is "I am servant of Krsna." So there is no necessity of giving up egotism or egoism, but it must be real. At the present moment we are falsely thinking, "I am this body," every one of us. There is no argument. The whole material world is going on on the basis of this false conception that "I am this body." And because I am this body, therefore "I am American," "I am Indian." So this is false ego.

So from this false ego, when we come to real ego... What is that real ego? That "I am servant of Krsna." Gopi-bhartur pada-kamalayor dasa-dasa-dasa-dasanudasah [Cc. Madhya 13.80]. That is real ego. So our, this Krsna consciousness movement is teaching people how to come to the real ego, real constitutional position. The Mayavadi philosophy, they are also trying to do that, but they're another false ego: aham brahmasmi. Aham brahmasmi -- "I am Brahman" -- that is a fact, but I am not Supreme Brahman, Parabrahman. The Mayavadi, they take it: "Because I am Brahman, I am Supreme Brahman." No. Suppose you are all coming from America. You can claim that you are American, but that does not mean you are Mr. Ford, the President. So similarly, this is false ego. If somebody thinks, "Because I am American, therefore I am equal to Mr. Ford," that is false. That is not... So our Krsna consciousness movement is how to bring back these, I mean to say, insane, crazy fellows to their real consciousness. These crazy fellows, they are thinking, "I am God," "I am master," "I am this," "I am that," "I am prime minister," "I am president." This false ego. The real ego is, "I am servant of Krsna." That is the beginning of Caitanya Mahaprabhu's teaching.

When Caitanya Mahaprabhu was approached by Sanatana Gosvami, his first question was ke ami: "Who am I?" This is the first education, spiritual education. And the same thing is taught in the Bhagavad-gita because Arjuna was too much identifying himself in the bodily conception of life: "I belong to this Kurus' family, so if I kill them, then family will be ruined. The women will be widows, and they'll be corrupted. Then there will be unwanted children, varna-sankara, and in this way the whole world will be hellish," and so on, so on, so many, but beginning with the bodily conception of life. All, what was, Arjuna was explaining to Krsna, that was... From material point of view, it is very nice. He wanted to become nonviolent. He did not like to kill his family members. He, rather, liked to forego his claim, that "I don't want. Let them enjoy." But everything, from material point of view, it was very nice proposal. But this identification with family, with nation, with community, this is all foolishness. All foolishness.

So if you study this point only, you'll see the whole world is full of fools and rascals, that's all, because everyone is identifying with his body. There is fight, the United Nation. What is this United Nation nonsense? Assembly of rascals and fools, that's all. (laughter) Because they have got this bodily concept of life we can say, freely. There is no -- what is called? -- defaming. Everyone, fools and rascals. How we can say?

On the strength of Vedic knowledge. This is our power. Otherwise how we can challenge the United Nation that "You are all assembly of fools and rascals"? This is Vedic knowledge. We can say and prove it, that they are all fools and rascals from the spiritual point of view because they do not know their identification. This is the first education, to know one's identification. That is being taught by Sanatana Gosvami and Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He was prime minister. He knew himself, Sanatana Gosvami, that he was prime minister of Hussain Shah and he's coming of very learned brahmana family.

He knew it. Then why he's asking, ke ami: "Who am?" This is knowledge. This is knowledge. One has to understand himself. That is the basic principle of spiritual life. Unless we understand who I am... You go to the spiritual master, our first business is inquiry. That inquiry is "Who am I?" This is the... This is the beginning of inquiry. So our, this Krsna consciousness movement is authorized.

We have printed one pamphlet, "Krsna Consciousness Movement Is Authorized." It is not a sentiment, fanaticism. No. It is scientific, authorized. So I am very glad that you European and American boys, you have taken so much trouble to come here, but you'll be benefited if you come here and try to take lessons from Caitanya Mahaprabhu as He gave it to Sanatana Gosvami. Sanatana Gosvami inquired, "Who am I?" and He replied very simple thing: jivera svarupa haya nitya krsna dasa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. This is the beginning of our lesson, so we must understand very nicely this point.

So this material world is explained here: tasyaiva te vapur idam nija-kala-saktya. Energy, Krsna's energy, prakrti. Energy means prakrti. So parasya brahmana sakti. Eka-sthane sthitasyagner jyotsna vistarini yatha, parasya brahmanah sakti tathaiva akhilam jagat. Then same thing we'll find in the Vedic literature everywhere, either you read Puranas or Mahabharata, or Bhagavad-gita or Srimad-Bhagavatam or Vedanta-sutra.

Vedanta-sutra also says that "The origin... The Absolute Truth is origin, and everything is emanation." So emanation and the original fact-vapur idam. Idam hi visvam bhagavan ivetarah: "This visvam, this universe, is Bhagavan in one sense." Just like this my finger, so that is also my body. Although it is named "finger," but it is my body. Or even a piece of hair, that is also my body, although it is differently named, "hair." So similarly, when you understand that every particle of this material world is also the body of the Supreme Lord, that is Krsna consciousness. Andantarastham paramanu-cayantara-stham. Eko 'py asau racayitum jagad-anda-koti. So there are millions and trillions of universes, and each atom of each universe is Krsna. That we have to understand. That is being explained here.

Tasyaiva te vapur idam nija-kala-saktya sancodita-prakrti dharmana atma-gudham. The secret, the people, they do not know. They... But Prahlada Maharaja knows. Ambhasi. This is the beginning of creation, ambhasi. Ambhasy ananta-sayanat. Anantadeva... Ananta faces, there are. On that Ananta-naga, the Garbhodakasayi Visnu is lying on. So from the navel of Garbhodakasayi Visnu there is a lotus flower, and... Vatavat-mahabjam. So, so there is Brahma, and Brahma created other thing. So it is just like the...

In previous verse it has been explained, "Just like the seed of the fruit of the tree." Seed is the cause of the tree, and tree is the cause of the seed. In this way the whole material cosmic manifestation is there, and vapur idam tava te. So everything of Krsna. Therefore a Vaisnava's, I mean to say, conception is that everything at least Krsna's, so everything should be utilized for Krsna's benefit. This is Krsna consciousness, not "my benefit." "I also belong to Krsna, so I must be utilized for Krsna's benefit." So in this way, if we develop our Krsna consciousness, then we'll be benefited.

Thank you very much. (end)

The Supreme Reservoir of Erotic Principles

INSIDE TALKS
By Tridandi Goswami A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami [Prabhupada]

The Bhagawatam Puranam or the “SRIMAD BHAGAWATAM” in pursuance of the “VEDANTA (Philosophy) SUTRAS”, put forward a very scientific explanation of the Supreme Absolute Truth Personality of Godhead in a nutshell. The ABSOLUTE TRUTH is that from which everything emanates, on whom everything is sustained and whom everything is conserved after disappearance.

There are eighteen thousand Sanskrit verses in the Srimad Bhagawatam simply to explain these three things namely the Ultimate source of all generations, the reservoir of all maintenance and the conservation of all energies. The beauty of this great literature ‘Srimad Bhagawatam’ is that throughout the 18000 verses, you will find a new light in each and every verse about the Absolute Truth. In other words Srimad Bhagawatam is the science of the Absolute Truth and it is admitted in responsible circles of modern age.* There is step by step gradual development of the great science and the culmination is achieved in the 10^th canto where in the middle five chapters you will find the erotic principles of life in the ultimate Cause or the Transcendence. More clearly there is description of the amorous love affairs of the Absolute Person with His spiritual pleasure potency.

The whole world of animation is moving on under the spell of this pleasure potency perverted by reflection in the temporary illusion as a refection of water in the desert. The sex-life on the material world is an adulterated spurious representation of the original pleasure potency of the Absolute Truth. In the material world, therefore sex-life is the central point of all activities. Had there been no sex life, no animation would have been exhibited in the daily life of the living creatures; man, animal, bird or beast. This pleasure feature of the sex-life is, therefore, a tangible fact and in every step of our developed consciousness even at the fagend of aged life we are all liable to be affected by sex pleasure. Fact as it is the ultimate source of this pleasure-potency must be in the Supreme Reservoir of erotic principles without any inebriety of mundane creation. That reservoir of Transcendental Love is the CHINMITHUN or the Spiritual Couple of Radha and Krishna depicted in the picture or leaf. Krishna or the Absolute Personality of all Attraction is ONE without a second but He manifests His Pleasure Potency as Radha or the Pleasure Counter Part of Krishna and thus He enjoys a spiritual bliss without any material contamination.

The Janmadyasya appoggiatura of the Vedanta Sutra affirms the above –mentioned truth and Srimad Bhagawatam explains it elaborately as well as philosophically by gradual development of transcendental sense. If there were no real attractive love between the potent and the potency there was no possibility of its being pervertedly reflected in the temporary or false material world. The shadow of water would not have been experienced if there was no water factually. The false notion of a snake on the curling rope is perceived because there is actual existence of snake as reality. False refection may not be actual fact or truth but the source of such refection is reality. The picture of the cinema show may be a false refection of a shadow play, but there is always a factual play behind the picture.

Therefore, the definition of God or the Supreme Absolute Truth put forward in the very beginning of the Srimad Bhagawatam is a wonderful presentation and this great literature must be relished by all thinking men of the world in an atmosphere of unreasonably Godless Civilization. As such this will fill up a great gulf of disparity of the human society in advance form of materialism.

Do not say that there is no God. It is sheer foolishness; because the very assertion that there is no God proves that there is God positively. This power of speaking that ‘there is no God, the power of seeing, the power of thinking, the power of moving, the power of willing and the power doing or enjoying a thing, all powers are but borrowed potencies from God; and God helps us in every action because we want to do it. That is the version of all books of knowledge and observation of our daily life. No body even the greatest scientist can give all these powers of animation to the dead stone. As such God is defined in the Vedas as the Supreme Living Truth[1] and the leader of all living beings. In every field of activities we require a leader or the source of inspiration and the Supreme Leader or Leader of all leaders is known as God or the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That Supreme Godhead as Lord Krishna is presented in the ‘Bhagwat Geeta’ and it is further explained in the ‘Srimad Bhagawatam’.

There are different personal features of attraction; wealth, strength, influence, beauty, knowledge, and renunciation. All these items are different personal features of attraction. If a fellowman is wealthy, he attracts the neighbor; if a fellowman is stronger, he attracts others; if a fellowman is beautiful, he attracts others; if a fellowman is learned, he attracts others; and at least if a fellowman is in the renounced order of life, he also attracts others. But within our experience, there is no one who is perfectly and completely wealthy, influential, beautiful, powerful, learned or mendicant than the Supreme One. The living entities are sometimes called as God but no such god or demigod can be compared with the Supreme God. The Absolute Godhead is different from the relative gods. The relative gods are dependant on others but the Supreme God is fully conscious, fully independent and fully attractive for all. All these qualities of Godhead are fully present in the Personality of Godhead Sri Krishna and there is no body else with full perfection of Godly attributes. Srimad Bhagawatam explains these transcendental attributes of the Supreme Personality of Godhead with statements full of philosophy and full of reasons to prove it factually that there is God the Supreme Person, for convincing even those who unreasonably say that “THERE IS NO GOD”.

The science of God is greater than all other sciences and it is explained in the ‘Srimad Bhagawatam’ verse by verse. One must have therefore, the required patience to learn this science of God from the right source and then say whether there is God or there is no God. By scientific study of the Personality of Godhead, we can know that paramount God, His name, His abode, His attributes, His pastimes, His entourage and His paraphernalia all are identical as the Absolute Truth distinguished from all relativities.

---

[1] Kathpoanishad

[The above is from The Srimad-Bhagavatam, the very first edition which Srila Prabhupada wrote before he came to America in 1965...it is not currently in print]

The complete edition of volume 1 is available at http://www.krishna.tv/

The complete edition of all 12 volumes are also avalible at http://www.krishna.tv/

I Shall Prove That There Is God

Reporter: What do you try and teach, sir?

Prabhupada: I am trying to teach what you have forgotten.

Devotees: Haribol! Hare Krsna! (laughter)

Reporter: Which is what?

Prabhupada: That is God. Some of you are saying there is no God, some of you are saying God is dead, and some of you are saying God is impersonal or void. These are all nonsense.

I want to teach all these nonsense that there is God. That is my mission. Any nonsense can come to me, I shall prove that there is God. That is my Krsna consciousness movement. It is a challenge to the atheistic people. There is God.

As we are sitting here face to face, you can see God face to face. If you are sincere and if you are serious, that is possible. Unfortunately, we are trying to forget God; therefore we are embracing so many miseries of life. So I am simply preaching that you have Krsna consciousness and be happy. Don’t be swayed away by these nonsense waves of maya, or illusion. That is my request.

Devotees: Haribol!

Reporter: Is this singing essential to the sustenance of your faith?

Prabhupada: This singing is the process for clearing the dust accumulated on the heart. Our relationship with God is eternal. It cannot be broken. But due to the contact of maya we are trying to forget Him. But if we chant this holy name of God, Hare Krsna, then maya will not act, and we shall very quickly understand what is our relationship with God. That is the process. Ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12].

The Sanskrit word is “cleansing the dirty heart.” The dirty heart. In the Bhagavad-gita it is said, na mam duskrtino mudhah prapadyante naradhamah [Bg. 7.15]. Those who are miscreants, rascals, and lowest of the mankind, and taken all knowledge, and atheistic class of men, they do not know what is God. Others, those who are virtuous, those who are inquisitive, those who are wise, they will try and they will understand what is God.

So my appeal to you is that you try to understand this movement, Krsna consciousness movement. It is not a bogus movement. It is scientific, authorized. Any scientist, any philosopher and logician may come and we shall prove that there is God and we have got eternal relationship with God. So if you want to (be) happy, then you must take to this Krsna consciousness movement.

Otherwise the human race is doomed. Harav abhaktasya kuto mahad-guna [SB 5.18.12]. Anyone who has no God consciousness, he has no qualification. However academically he may be very rich, he has no qualification. Manorathena asato dhavato bahih. His only qualification is mental concoction. Mental concoction. That’s all. He has no other qualification. So we reject all these nonsense. We simply accept a sincere soul who wants to dedicate his life for God’s service.

So it is not easy thing. These boys and girls who are following me, they are very elevated. They are not ordinary boys and girls. They have taken to Krsna consciousness. Their quality is greater than any mundane erudite scholar. It is a challenge. Yasyasti bhaktir bhagavaty akincana sarvair gunais tatra samasate surah. Anyone who has developed God consciousness, love of God, all good qualities will automatically develop in him. All good qualities. Test any of our students, how they are good, how they are advanced. Test it. Bring anyone in this world and test any one of our boys.

You’ll find how much difference there is in their character, in their feeling, in their consciousness. So this is the only thing. If you want peaceful society, then you must make them God conscious, Krsna consciousness. Everything will be automatically solved. Otherwise your so-called United Nations will not help.

Reporter: Mr. Billy Graham makes people God conscious in a different way. Can you tell me what you think of him?

Prabhupada: I do not know what is Billy Graham, but I am following the Vedic principle, Bhagavad-gita as it is. Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66].

God says that “You give up all nonsense occupation, simply surrender unto Me, and I take charge of you and give you protection.” This is our philosophy.

Reporter: Can I ask you some questions about your general attitudes on things going on around us? For instance, what do you feel about man going to the moon? (laughter)

Prabhupada: This is simply a waste of time. I already commented on this when I was in San Francisco. The reporters asked me this very question. I flatly replied that it is simply waste of time and money. That’s all. (laughter)

Reporter: What about something very much nearer to ourselves here in this country, and that is a war or civil disturbance is going on...

Prabhupada: Well, war is going on.

Reporter: ...between Christians?

Prabhupada: No. We are not Christian nor Hindu nor Muslim. We are God’s servant. That’s all. Anyone who is God’s servant, there is no disagreement. And when one is maya’s servant, servant of maya, illusion, there is disagreement. So it doesn’t matter. Our test is, sa vai pumsam paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhoksaje [SB 1.2.6].

That system of religion is first class which teaches how to love God. That’s all. It doesn’t matter whether it is Christian religion, Muhammadan religion or Hindu religion. We shall see. If the follower of the religion has learned how to love God, then his religion is perfect. Otherwise it is useless.

Reporter: But do you not think it’s worth going to such places as Ireland and trying to talk to the people out there to stop warring?

Prabhupada: Now, this is our talking, that the first-class religion is that which teaches how to love God. Try to understand this. This is the simple formula.

Reporter: Yes, but don’t you think it’s worth going over there to try and help them?

Prabhupada: We shall see. Suppose you are Christian. If you have developed your sense of loving God, then you are perfect, your religion is perfect. But instead of loving God, if you have developed your sense of loving dog, then you have wasted your time. That is our test. Yes. You want to ask any question?

Reporter: I think the lady wants to take you away somewhere. (Prabhupada chuckles)

Reporter (2): I think that the wind is up.

Prabhupada: All right.

Reporter: I should just like to know how old you are.

Prabhupada: I am? I am seventy-four years old. I was born in 1896.

Reporter: Whereabouts?

Prabhupada: In India, Calcutta.

[Srila Prabhupada arrives in London 9-11-1969, Interview at Airport]

Scientist - Who Made Your Brain?

Prabhupada: ...these are all misconceptions because I am not this body. I am spirit soul. When the spirit soul goes away, then where is the distinction? Suppose in hospital some Hindu dies or some Muslim dies, some Christian die, the spirit... They are stacked together as useless matter. Is it not? There is no distinction there now, Hindu, Muslim, Christian, white, black. Now it is dead body, put aside. Eh? So, but when living, when the spirit soul is there, they are dividing, this designation. So this knowledge that so long the spirit soul is there in the body, it is important. As soon as the soul is gone, it is useless. But people are giving more stress on the body than on the active principle, living force, what is there. There is no study. Suppose you are all scientists. What is your studying about that living force that is moving the body?
Dr. Muncing: I would agree with you that the body, when a person dies, it's material and dead in the terms we use and the spirit moves on. And I accept from that that at that stage one has nothing to..., one has no worry about the body. But in the stage that we are now, where our body and our soul are together, it seems to me that this is one unity and you can't use the argument that at that stage you should neglect the body.
Prabhupada: No, we don't say neglect the body. But the important factor... Just like our, this Svarupa Damodara has explained that behind this material combination, there is an active principle which is soul. That is the important thing. But in the modern age they are giving more stress on the unimportant thing, and they have no knowledge of the important thing. This is the defect.
Dr. Muncing: I think I disagree with that.
Dr. Harrap: I'm a little uncertain from reading some of your comments about the primary aim that you would set for science. I would place a great deal of emphasis on the contribution that science can make to the community.
Prabhupada: That I admit. That I admit. Yes.
Dr. Muncing: With respect, sir, I notice you wear a watch. This must be obviously a product of science, and this is what it's about. But you are stressing time and again in your writings the need to concentrate on the laws that you set out in order to achieve some standing in the future, in the life hereafter. Isn't this at the risk of neglecting the people who are sharing this life with us here and now?
Prabhupada: No, it is not the question of neglecting. Just like formerly there was no watch, but still they used to keep time by the movement of the sun on a dial, just making some marks on the stone. Do you know this?
Guests: Yes, yes, I know.
Prabhupada: Yes. So their work was going on. Their work was not suffering for want of this watch.
Dr. Muncing: I agree.
Prabhupada: Yes. So we have got good brain. Instead of utilizing the brain to know what is the active principles of this whole universe, if we utilize that brain for manufacturing a watch, that is not very good proposal. You manufacture watch, but at the same time, you try to study the active principle, who is the watchmaker. I am seeing the watch with the eyes, but as soon as the active principle is gone, no more seeing. Where is that science? A watchmaker is making, screw-driving, and doing so many things. All of a sudden his heart fails. No more watch. What is that active principle? Where is that science? That is my proposition?
Dr. Muncing: It wasn't the manufacturing aspect. It was the creative aspect that I was concerned with, that there is a creative faculty in man that can be used to benefit the rest of mankind. Isn't there a tendency...
Prabhupada: Creative faculty... Therefore we first of all give stress, the creative faculty, that the watchmaker is doing nice work, but who has made that watchmaker? Who is that creative faculty? You are a scientist, you have good brain, but you cannot manufacture the brain. But who has manufactured your brain?
Guest (2): But isn't it the use to which the brain is put that is the...
Prabhupada: If you are scientist, you create a similar brain like you. That you cannot do. But somebody has created your brain. And who is that person? Professor Einstein, big scientist, but he could not create another Professor Einstein so that after his death the work would continue. Because the brain creator, the brain of scientist created by somebody, that is not in your hand. You cannot create another similar brain. That is not possible. But if you are surprised with the mechanical arrangement of the small watch, why you should not study the mechanical arrangement of a great scientist? But as the mechanical arrangement of the watch is made by some brain, similarly, your brain or Professor Einstein's brain, that is also made by another scientist. And who is that scientist? We are glorifying the brain of the scientist but we are not glorifying the scientist who has made the brain of the scientist.
Dr. Muncing: If we weren't being recorded I would make a comment but we are, so I won't. (laughter) Sir, could we move from the metaphysical to the material for a brief moment? We were not certain from reading your book whether it would be acceptable, but Dr. Harrap has a special sample of cheese which we wondered if we might present.
Dr. Harrap: This is cheese that has been made in the C.S.R.O. from cow's milk, and I hope that perhaps you might enjoy it.
Prabhupada: Oh, thank you very much. So you can give some cheese preparation to all these respectable scientists. You have got that sweet, sweet ball?
Satsvarupa: Where are they? I could not find them just now.
Prabhupada: You go and find out.
Dr. Harrap: This is a variety of cheese that, what we call a gouda cheese which comes originally from Holland. But it is very much liked in Asian countries and Australia has quite a large export market to many of the Asian countries, and more particularly to Japan. It seems to appeal very much to the taste of cheese-loving people in these countries, and this is a product which is becoming more and more popular in these countries.
Prabhupada: From milk you can prepare hundreds and thousands of preparations.
Dr. Harrap: Oh, yes. Yes. Even in cheeses there are probably hundreds of varieties.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. We make. We actually make. At least ten, twenty kinds of sweet preparation we make from the cheese. Therefore our, as recommended in the Bhagavad-gita, krsi-go-raksya-vanijyam [Bg. 18.44]. Krsi-go-raksya. People... A class of men should be trained up for agriculture, producing food grain, and cow protection. Cow protection means you get the milk, sufficient quantity, and from milk you get so many nutritious, full of vitamin food.
Dr. Harrap: It's a complete food in itself.
Prabhupada: Yes. Those who are meat-eaters, they can eat other non-important animals, but cows must be saved, even from economic point of view. Here it is said that go-raksya. It does not say, Krsna, "elephant-raksya." Elephant is a big animal, and at least fifty times more than cow, there is flesh.

But it is not recommended. But the cow protection is recommended because it has got the miracle food, milk, and from milk you can prepare hundreds of preparation, all nutritious, full of vitamin A and D. So therefore it is recommended, go-raksya. It is not that meat-eating is stopped. Meat-eaters may kill other non-important animals but don't kill animal, er, cow. And besides that, from moral point of view, we are drinking milk from the cow, so she is mother. According to Vedic understanding there are seven kinds of mother: adau mata, real mother. Adau mata, guru patni, the wife of guru, spiritual master. Adau mata, guru patni, brahmani, the wife of a brahmana.

Brahmana means the most intelligent class of men in the society. Who are brahmana, that is also mentioned there in the sastra. So his wife. Adau mata, guru patni... In general the understanding is, except your wife all woman is your mother. That is the instruction of Canakya Pandita. Matrvat para-daresu: "All women should be treated as mother." Para-daresu. Para-dara means others' wife. So every woman was married. It is compulsory. This is the Vedic system, that every woman must be married. It is the duty of the father to see the daughter is married, must be married. It is called kanya-daya. You cannot evade this responsibility. You must.

The father's duty is, as soon as the girl is grown-up, immediately some boy must be found out and handed over: "My dear boy, I give you this girl in charity. You take care and give her protection." This is marriage. And he agrees, "Yes, I take charge of this girl." In our society, we get married. Your government has approved our society that we can...

Madhudvisa: The Australian government in the latest Gazette has recognized the Hare Krsna movement as a bona fide religion eligible to perform legal marriages.
Prabhupada: And the other day Reverend Powell came. He also has given his announcement in the paper. What is that?
Satsvarupa: "Don't be alarmed at the Hare Krsnas." (laughter) Reverend Gordon Powell...
Guest (2): Yes, if we were alarmed we wouldn't be here.
Prabhupada: No, actually we are pledged to give something substantial to the human society. This is our mission. We are not that group, that showing some magic and take some fees and... It is not our business. We have got so many literatures full of treasurehouse of knowledge. We have to distribute that. Not bluffing, showing magic or this or that, miracles. No. We are not this. It is an institution for giving knowledge to the human society. The first beginning of knowledge is that at the present moment, people, although very much proud of their advancement of knowledge, he does not know what is the active principle of life.
Guest (2): Could we cover one more subject, sir, before we close, or do you have some...
Guest (1): I would like to ask about the writings and where they came from and so on, but you go first.
Guest (2): You should read the book. I have a very good friend, a brahmana friend in the Indian Atomic Energy Commission. How do you view the development of the potential for nuclear explosions in India?
Prabhupada: Yes, from the revealed scripture we can understand from... You have got the first part of Bhagavatam?
Caru: Yes, right here.
Prabhupada: The Asvatthama released the brahmastra?
Satsvarupa: That's in three I think.
Prabhupada: Similar nuclear weapon was there. It was called brahmastra. So when this brahmastra was released by one Asvatthama, the same symptom of nuclear weapon... Krsna krsna maha baho. That is...
Satsvarupa: We don't have that volume.
Prabhupada: Why you are lacking? You have got enough books. I inquired from you in the morning. You said, "Yes, we have got enough stock."
Madhudvisa: We have them but we do not have them here.
Prabhupada: No, that is not... Here are people coming, gentlemen coming.
Madhudvisa: The question was, Srila Prabhupada, that he wanted to know what you are thinking about India, India's...
Prabhupada: I am not thinking of India. I am not thinking of India. I am thinking for the whole human society. Why shall I think for India? Vasudha eva kutumbakam. When we become God conscious, then we don't think in that way, "I am Indian," "I am Englishman," "I am Australian," "I am this," no. We don't think. This is the crippled thinking of the materialistic person. Panditah sama darsinah [Bg. 5.18]. Find out this verse.

vidya-vinaya-sampanne
brahmane gavi hastini
suni caiva sva-pake ca
panditah sama-darsinah
[Bg. 5.18]

Caru:

vidya-vinaya-sampanne
brahmane gavi hastini
suni caiva sva-pake ca
panditah sama-darsinah
[Bg. 5.18]

"The humble sage, by virtue of true knowledge, sees with equal vision a learned and gentle brahmana, a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog-eater."

Prabhupada: Because our vision is from the standard of the soul. The soul is there in elephant as well as in the learned scientist. So panditah sama-darsinah [Bg. 5.18], means a learned, advanced, spiritualist, he sees that everyone is soul. The body, material body, is dress. Just like we are talking with Dr. such and such, not with the dress. We are not interested with the dress, but we are interested with you, person. Similarly, these bodies are dresses, different dresses, according to the price he has paid. According to his work, nature gives him. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah [Bg. 3.27].

Caru: Ahankara vimudha.

Prabhupada: Karanam guna-sango 'sya [Bg. 13.22]. Find out this verse.

Caru:

prakrteh kriyamanani
gunaih karmani sarvasah
ahankara vimudhatma
kartaham iti manyate
[Bg. 3.27]

"The bewildered spirit soul, under the influence of the three modes of material nature, thinks himself to be the doer of activities which are in actuality carried out by nature."

Prabhupada: Nature. Nature is giving us different body. I am the spirit soul. Because I have accepted natural, the material nature's protection, I am getting different types of body. This life I have got this body, next life I may get another body. That is explained. Tatha dehantara prapti. We have to accept another body. Now you are scientist, next life you may be different. You may have a different body. Where is that science? Here is the information. But where is the science cultivated in the universities, education. There is no science, but this is a fact.
Guest (2): Well, it's just on five. Do you want to sneak in one?
Madhudvisa: These are preparations which is prepared from Australian milk.
Prabhupada: Let him take. Yes.
Guest (2): Oh, thank you.
Madhudvisa: Give a napkin. It's a sweet preparation called gulab jamin. It is all prepared just from milk which has been made into curd, and then the curd has been fried in ghee, cooking ghee, and then after it has been fried, it has been soaked in sweet water and it is very palatable. It's called a gulab jamin. It is a very famous delicacy of Indian cooking. It requires great skill and art to prepare these. And as our spiritual master said, there is actually hundreds and hundreds of food which can be prepared from this, like the cheese you have there. Even cooking cheese and spicing it with asafoetida and ginger, meat taste can be simulated very, very nicely.
Prabhupada: This cheese as it is you take, it is as beneficial as meat.
Madhudvisa: Protein.
Guest (2): Yes, yes. Similar protein.
Prabhupada: So why the animal should be killed? Take milk.
Guest (2): What is sweet water? You mean just sugar...
Madhudvisa: Syrup.
Guest (2): Now is this made here or in India?
Madhudvisa: Yes, we make it ourselves. Our spiritual master taught us how to make it. (laughter) An ancient science.
Prabhupada: No, no, I am teaching them, "Eat nicely, live nicely, and be prepared for your next life, for going back to home, back to Godhead." You can take it. It is very nice.
Guest (2): You mean to eat it now?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest (2): I would sooner take it home and eat it with my wife.
Prabhupada: No, no, you take, you take it. You just...
Madhudvisa: I can give you another.
Prabhupada: Yes. If you like we shall give you more.
Satsvarupa: It's very sweet. Watch it, it's very drippy though.
Guest (2): Yes, it looks like it.
Prabhupada: And if you send us cheese like this we can send you many things. (laughter)
Dr. Muncing: It's very nice, but I must save some for my family.
Dr. Harrap: I'd probably be irreligious if I said that it was soaked in rum, but... (laughter)
Dr. Muncing: It's very good.
Prabhupada: Shall I give you more?
Dr. Harrap: No, that's very nice, thank you. It'll ruin my dinner. Can I take the rest home?
Madhudvisa: Oh yes.
Dr. Muncing: Well, this has been most interesting.
Dr. Harrap: Oh, yes. Public relations for dairy research.
Madhudvisa: One thing that we would like to mention, as our spiritual master says, there is a definite, according to the Vedic scripture, there is a definite link between consumption of milk and development of fine brain tissues. And if your department of knowledge has some research in that area, we think it would be a great service to mankind if they can be informed how they can develop fine brain tissues. Fine brain tissues which are needed for coping with the problems of this day and age.

Not that simply if I disagree with you we'll just fight. There has to be fine brain tissues in order to say, "Let us sit down and talk about this together." And we say, not we, but according to the scripture, there is a definite link between the consumption of milk products, not just milk, but cheese and all different milk products, the consumption of milk products and development of the necessary intellect. This is why, as our spiritual master said, the highly intelligent people of India have lived predominantly, not just drinking milk, but everything they ate was cooked in milk products. The vegetables, rice, even if rice was boiled, milk was put on, ghee was put on the rice. So that is like an unavoidable essential in their diet, not simply from the palatable standpoint, but actually from the relationship between the physical and the metaphysical progress.

Prabhupada: And thousands of tons of ghee, clarified butter, was offered in the yajna. The smoke created a kind of cloud which is very good for cultivation.

Guest (2): Well, thank you...

Prabhupada: Thank you very much. (end)

You Have To Serve Somebody, You cannot avoid it...

Conversation--Hawaii, June 20, 1975
Prabhupada: So why not serve the supreme strong (?)?
Siddha-svarupa: Yes.
Prabhupada: That is natural. Nunam mahatam tatra. Mahat means bigger and more powerful, and nunam means there are less powerful. So everyone is less powerful than God. Then why don't you serve God? That is the perfection. You have to serve somebody strong. You cannot avoid it. Just study all status of society, animal society or human society. The law is that the stronger is dominating the weaker. That is the law. You cannot avoid it. So wherefrom this idea came unless it is in God? Janmady asya yatah [Bhag. 1.1.1]. All ideas come from the Supreme. That is the law, that the strong predominate over the weak. So who can be stronger than God? So this is our natural position, to serve God.Siddha-svarupa: Yes. And He is a nice master.

Prabhupada: Yes. Perfect master. Even without becoming master He is providing everything. Even though those who do not accept Him, He is also giving them. So what to speak of those who have accepted Him? This is very simple philosophy. It is His position to accept service. Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. It is good for the person who surrenders. Krsna doesn't require your service. When He says, "You surrender to Me," it does not mean that Krsna is suffering for your service. Krsna is self-sufficient. He can create millions of servants like you. So He doesn't require your service. But if you serve, then it is your benefit. You become saved: "Now I am under the protection of a very able..." [break] ...and every respect, opulence of master. You are serving cats and dogs. Why not serve the most supreme, able and opulent master? This is going on. You have to serve. You cannot say, "No, no. I will not serve. I am independent." That is not possible. You have to serve. You have to serve, and you will be exploited, by the imperfect masters. So why not serve the perfect master so that you will not be exploited again? It is simple.Siddha-svarupa: [break] ...being servants, but we're...

Prabhupada: You have to serve. If you do not serve, the strong will force you to serve.

Siddha-svarupa: And it's the most horrible service, too.

Prabhupada: Yes. Now this, as you say that the Hawaiians, they are meant for cleansing the hotel to get some money. And without money, he cannot live. So he forced to serve. What are the tanks? Petrol?

Siddha-svarupa: I think so. Yeah. Shell Oil.

Prabhupada: [break] Therefore the good intelligence is kamadinam kati na katidha palita durnidesan tesam mayi na karuna jata na trapa nopasantih: "I have served. I have served the so-called master. Actually I have served my senses." As they come to the hotel for sense gratification and do all nonsense and I have to serve him, so why I am serving? Oh, that is also for serving my senses. Without money I cannot serve my senses.

Siddha-svarupa: Yes. So that's ultimately the problem.

Prabhupada: (laughs) Ultimately the problem, that we have to serve, and ultimately we have to serve our senses. Senses means lusty desires, kamadinam. Kama means lust.

Siddha-svarupa: Addicted.

Prabhupada: Yes. Kama, krodha, lobha, moha, matsarya. Kama means lusty. Krodha means anger. If my lusty desire is not fulfilled, then I become angry. Then I have to serve anger. Kama, krodha. Then I become more greedy. Kama krodha lobha. Then I become illusioned, moha. Then I become envious. In this way I have become implicated. So this service of this material world means I become more and more implicated. Therefore a devotee says, "My Lord, now I have got sense." What is that sense? "Now I am meant for service, I have rendered service, but nobody has become happy, either the master or myself. Therefore now I have got intelligence: why not serve You? You are the supreme master. So I have come to You. Please engage me in Your service."

This is full surrender. Kamadinam kati na katidha palita durnidesah. By serving this material objective, there is no peace. Everyone is unhappy although they are rendering service and taking service. This is going on, but nobody is happy because this is artificial. Real service... Unless the thing comes to the real point, there is no peace. Here everyone is trying to become master, and everyone wants to avoid service. But by the nature's law, one has to become servant and render service. Going on. Conglomeration. Kamadinam kati na katidha palita durnidesas tesam mayi na karuna jata na trapa nopasantih. [break] (end)

Man is the architect of his own fortune

Man is the architect of his own fortune. That is an old well known English maxim and the good fortune that the man has evolved out for him at the present moment can be amply verified as soon as we receive our morning newspapers. The sample good news that we are receiving now in every morning are as follows:

1) Bihar Government Deny starvation death. (A.B.P. 23.45)
2) Rice selling at 55 and salt at 80/- per (?).
3) People living on cotton & Potato leaves.
4) 600 Viet Minh Troops Taken Prisoner.
5) 500 mounds of food burnt in granary.
6) Famine conditions in such and such places.
7) Progressive decontrol urged in Conferences.
8) Recovery of Abducted women.
9) (?) on woes of Refugees.
10) High Government official Arrested.
11) Government Crisis in Britain.
12) Troops Patrolling Streets of Cooch Behar
13) Mob attacks ____’s House and injures son.
14) Congress Office Raided
15) Rationing Official Assaulted
16) Present Administration (?) and compared with past
17) 30,000 Nepalese migrate to India.
18) Persian students defy Government Ban.
19) Mile long procession in Sympathy with Killed oil workers.
20) Red offensive Imminent.
21) Principal Garg Killed by examinees
22) Daring Robbery at Lloyds Bank.
23) Rs. 12 lakhs taken away.
24) Baroda Ex-Rulers Submission to President.

Thoughtful men must now seriously think how we are marching towards the progressive way of human civilization. The influence of modern civilizing process, by the highests(?) of planning commissions, is gradually leading us to a destination summarised as follows:

1) Destruction of Faith, Truthfulness, cleanliness, Forgiveness, Mercy, Longevity, Strength and Memory.
2) Accumulation of vast wealth is the standard of recognition for one's parentage, behavior and good qualities.
3) Black-market in every business deal.
4) Sexuality in conjugal love.
5) Only a piece of thread on the body marks the sign of Brahmanism.
6) Only a red garment as the sign of a sannyåsî.
7) No justice in the law Court without money.
8) Impartinance as the sign of education.
9) Poverty means dishonesty.
10) Pride means honesty.
11) Acceptance by contract means marriage.
12) Keeping long hairs means beauty.
13) Exaggeration means truthfulness.
14) Filling the stomach means self-realization.
15) Providing the wife & children means ability.
16) Religiosity means to acquire some extraordinary name & fame.

When we have produced such a glorious sample of human civilization, certainly democracy will mean nothing but accumulating a large number of votes by hook or crook and then capture the political power. As a result of such unruly(unholy?) election heads of political power, will be by nature merciless, greedy and bestowed with the qualities of the plunderers. The unfortunate voters who have not much discriminating power as victimized by the chain of modern civilizing process become subjected to the plundering process of the political heads in the matter of their hearth and home.

These unfortunate people being too much harrassed by governmental taxes and famine, are forced to accept cotton and potato or other leaves as foodstuff. They become forced to accept meat and flesh instead of grains and vegetables and they are obliged to assimilate hydrogenated injurious oil in place milk and ghee. By such eating process they are attacked with cholera, typhoid, dysentry and tuberculosis to meet an end of miserable life.

They are subjected to the pangs of winter and summer, rains and sun besides hunger, thirst, disappointment, frustration. Thus they have to make a sad end of life by over anxiety due to all round scarcity.

That is the sum and substance of the advancement of material civilization. Undoubtedly we have produced by dint of advancement of having the motors, the radios, the cinemas, the railways, the airways, the (? ), the medicines, the toilets, the big buildings, the big mills, agricultural implements, big offices, (?), hodgepodge philosophers, industrialists, poets, scientists, politicians, iron men, statesmen and what not but the net result is no food, no clothing, no shelter, no peace.

Will any thinking and sober man with any sense of human reasoning call this status of human life as civilized? We think not. This unrestricted material progress of civilization must be checked if humanity has to exist at all and the big brains who pose to lead the people in general must now try to understand and recognise that matter is not all in all but it is subordinate to the spirit.
The matter is produced of inferior nature while the spirit is born of a superior nature. The living being whatever it may be is the particle of that spirit qualitatively one & equal with the Supreme Spirit. The living entities are parts & parcels of the Supreme Spirit. The ideology of material civilization must be changed into the ideology of spiritual civilization. Material civilization is based on the ideology of unsatiable desire for sense gratification which leads to anger when such sense gratification remains unsatisfied and from anger it turns to bewilderment which again turns into loss of memory. This loss of memory is complete destruction of spiritual consciousness which is the highest type of ignorance.

Leaders of material ideology came and gone after having enjoyed this material earth for a limited period. The material bodies of such leaders of ideology under various big big names are now turned into worms, stools or ashes and such materialistic leaders who fought so much on their different ideologies did not know what should be permanent basis of civilization. Most of them have gone to the lowest status of the kingdom of hell due to their unholy action of public nuisance. Such leader falsely thinks that this material world is now enjoyed by him and afterwards it shall be enjoyed by his generations without knowing what he is and what are his (?). Such false sense of proprietorship arises out of (?) ignorance by loss of memory of spiritual consciousness.

By falsely accepting this material body as the real self the foolish people engage themselves in the gross materialistic activities resulting in the conditions mentioned above but later on he goes away under the laws of higher authority leaving both the material world and material body behind them. They leave behind only a historical narration of their transient life without any (?) tangible benefit for the human being. The mother earth when the leaders and kings wanted to exploit laughs at these leaders and kings when she sees that the leaders and kings cannot go away but the earth remains where she is.

Dr. S.P. Mookerjee rightly observed in his address at Sri Aurobindo Memorial Convention (dated 24.4.51) as follows: “These spiritual efforts of the great master often defy common understanding. Yet the call of the times was never so imperious at it is now. What India is suffering from today is not so much poverty of the means of material existence. She is suffering much more from the bankruptcy of her spiritual resources. Her spirit has stooped low and is even now stooping low—not to conquer but to encompass a moral tragedy too terrible to contemplate. “The Government moves in the same vicious circle. Moral standards are at discount. High purpose is resumed exclusively as an adornment of pontifical pronouncement from high offices. The same(?) is virtually littered with the debris of the spiritual achievements of a people that was once great.”

Leading must be there, direction must be there, but the direction and leading must be perfect

[Excerpt from a Morning Walk--May 8, 1975, Perth]

Prabhupada: That is human life. That inquisitiveness cannot be found in cats and dogs. That is the difference between cats and dogs and human being. Human being, unless he becomes inquisitive for what is the ultimate source, he is not human being. All these people, 99.9 per cent people, they are not inquisitive.

They are searching after some happiness, but they are not inquisitive what is the source of happiness. They are being baffled in the material world. They have, for happiness they have discovered this horseless carriage and so many things, but there is so much unhappiness also when the motor car is crashed between two and life is lost. They are not inquisitive that we have invented this machine for happiness, why this disaster? That intelligence is not. That is it. They are simply going on searching after, but when we say, “No, not in this way, come this way and you’ll get happiness,” They’ll not. That is (inaudible).

Paramahamsa: But if a person becomes too much inquisitive, just like with the boy and the mrdanga, due to his inquisitiveness he ruined the mrdanga, and then he doesn’t have any drum.

Prabhupada: That’s alright. The drum can be purchased again, but he should be given credit because he is inquisitive. You can purchase another drum, it doesn’t matter, but he gets the credit because he is inquisitive.

Ganesa: What about the scientists, Srila Prabhupada? They are very inquisitive, they are trying to find out the cause of the material world.

Prabhupada: That credit we give them. Just like this child. But the childishness is this, that when they are given correct information, they do not take it. (indistinct) If we say to the material scientists that “You are searching after this, here it is, Krsna, aham sarvasya prabhavo [Bg. 10.8], I am the original source of everything.” they will not accept. That is their foolishness.

Ganesa: They are very inquisitive, Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: That credit is already given, but you are inquisitive for a certain thing, if the thing is offered, if you do not accept then you become foolish. Bahunam janmanam ante [Bg. 7.19], Vasudeva, he’ll come to that point, that Krsna is everything, but when you inform him before that here is the thing, he will not take. That is the foolishness.

Paramahamsa: You were saying everyone is inquisitive for happiness, but shouldn’t that be purified? Shouldn’t we give up all desire for happiness?

Prabhupada: No, no. Happiness is life. How you can give up?

Paramahamsa: But if we desire for happiness, then we are being selfish.

Prabhupada: Yes, but you do not know where you is your self... [break] ...sense. That is your foolishness. Na te viduh svartha-gatim hi visnum [SB 7.5.31], they do not know. Everyone is selfish, everyone is self-interested. But he does not know how to fulfill it. That is foolishness.

Paramahamsa: But isn’t it better to give up all ego altogether?

Prabhupada: Why? Why? That is Mayavadi philosophy. We make our ego purified. “I am servant of Krsna.” That is wanted. Not that to make my egoism zero. That is Mayavada. They are disappointed, they think finish this egoism. It cannot be finished. Because you are individual soul, it cannot be finished. Simply it has to be purified. I am thinking Indian, you are thinking American. You are neither American neither Indian. We are all part and parcel of Krsna. Direct we have to come to that point. Not to falsely think that I am American, I am Indian, I am cat, I am dog. That has to be finished. But you’ll come to the real egoism, that I am eternal servant of Krsna. That “I am” will go on. No that... They are thinking in a way to finish the “I am” or “I am the same.” Wrong thing.

Ganesa: Srila Prabhupada, the material scientists are so inquisitive, yet they are leading lives like cats and dogs, how can they come to...?

Prabhupada: Yes, because they are wrongly directed. You are inquiring me, “Sir I want to such and such place.” If that place is this way, if I say you go this way. You go this way. Then you’ll be baffled, and you’ll be unhappy. Wrong direction.

Paramahamsa: But we are taking some direction from...

Prabhupada: That’s alright, but if you take wrong direction you’ll be unhappy. Your destination will not be (reached).

Ganesa: So how can the scientists arrive at vasudevah sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]?

Prabhupada: For that he has to take direction from Krsna. Krsna says the destination Himself. He comes and says, “Here is, I am the destination, come here.” But if you don’t take, that is your misfortune. The direction is here. The perfect director is there, but he’s unfortunate—he does not accept this. Therefore he is baffled. We are... Our propaganda is therefore, that you rascals, all blind leaders, rascals, don’t try to lead. Take Krsna’s instruction and lead. Then you’ll be perfect. This is our propaganda. Leading must be there, direction must be there, but the direction and leading must be perfect, then (indistinct). Or enquiries must be there but if the answers or the leading is bad, then you have to (indistinct). So we should make our enquiry to Krsna, and take His direction.

Paramahamsa: But some people say that the Bhagavad-gita is the direction, and some people say that the Koran is the direction, some people...

Prabhupada: Some people. Many authorities say it is right, and that is your fortune or misfortune. As some people say that it is written by some man or something, then it is not perfect. There are many others also, they say it is perfect. Now it is your choice, whom you to follow. So that some people as they are against, there are for also. Now it is up to you to accept whom. It is up to you. We accept the direction of the acaryas, Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, Caitanya. Their word is perfect. They take the direction of Gandhi or this man, that man. Both of them are taking direction, but when the direction is perfect, then you become perfect. If the direction is imperfect, you remain imperfect. That’s all.

Ganesa: We can see from the results of those different directions.

Prabhupada: Yes. Results, phalena-pariciyate. That is required. Now there are so many Gandhi-ite students. They have also read Bhagavad-gita, and you have also read Bhagavad-gita. Find out the difference. That is the result.

Paramahamsa: We have heard that Gandhi was a great mahatma.

Prabhupada: You have heard. You have heard so many things. That mountain gave birth to a mouse. You have heard like that.

Paramahamsa: But Gandhi also read the Bhagavad-gita, and he made so many wonderful comments on the Gita.

Prabhupada: That wonderfulness is for the rascals and the fools. What wonderful he has done? He preached nonviolence, but he was killed by violence. That is his wonderful example. He preached the philosophy of nonviolence, which is impossible. Therefore Krsna killed him by violence. This is his wonderful. And his foolishness was proved, that there cannot be nonviolence. So he was a fool.

Paramahamsa: But he himself was nonviolent.

Prabhupada: Nonviol... That’s alright, he was a fool. Therefore I say you cannot bring nonviolence in politics. There is no such history. Just like Arjuna wanted to be nonviolent. Krsna chastized him, that you are a foolish number one. So... This is to bring a horse before a cart. Politics and nonviolence, it is incompatible. It is not possible. And he did it. Therefore he was a fool. Just like if you want to cook without fire. Is it possible?
Devotee: No.

Prabhupada: So, this is foolishness. You become very bold enough, “Now I shall cook without fire.” You are a rascal number one. Gandhi did it. Actually he could not drive away the Britishers by nonviolence, for thirty years, thirty-five years he struggled. When Subash Bose introduced violence, they were forced out. This is politics. Politics and nonviolence (incompatible). There is no history in the world that politics has been successful without violence, and he introduced this. So how much foolish he was, you can understand. It is same thing like that, if somebody says, “I’ll cook without any. I shall scientifically do that a man can give birth to a child.” There is no history, and if I say, “Now I shall do it. I shall see that equal rights. As a woman is giving birth to a child, the man will also will give child.” These things are foolishness. This is not intelligence. The women are claiming equal rights. So, stop giving birth to a child? Then equal rights. Can it be possible? The man and woman unite, but the woman becomes pregnant, not the man. And if somebody says, now the man will become pregnant, is it not foolishness?

Paramahamsa: But they have made a way so that the women also don’t have to become pregnant. This contraceptive, and...
Prabhupada: This is another foolishness. (indistinct) another... [break] This unnatural thing. [break] What is this insignia?
Srutakirti: That is Ford’s insignia.
Prabhupada: Ford? This is Ford?
Srutakirti: This is a Ford?
Ganesa: LTD.
Ganesa: Does it mean we should use violence to spread Krsna consciousness then, Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: No. Yes, when there is politics, that is necessary. I am speaking of politics, not of love. You cannot create love by violence. That is another thing. But if you want kingdom, there must be violence. By violence you cannot force a woman, agree to love you. That is not possible. Then there must be love. The business must be done accordingly. But when there is politics, there must be violence. Otherwise you cannot come out victorious. [break] ...in a friendly way. “Might is right.” So Gandhi did this foolishness and he died of violence. (laughs) He praised the philosophy of nonviolence, but he was himself killed by violence. That was his foolishness.

Paramahamsa: But we have seen Lord Buddha, he conquered all of India with ahimsa, nonviolence, Lord Buddha.
Prabhupada: Lord Buddha was not a politician.
Paramahamsa: But he conquered India. He became the most...
Prabhupada: That is another thing. He conquered India. If he con-quered India, why he is driven out of India? Nobody is Buddhist now in India. And in Japan, nearly also halfway, so that is (indistinct). Buddha’s nonviolence and Gandhi’s nonviolence is different.
Paramahamsa: Yes.

Prabhupada: Gandhi’s nonviolence all rascaldom because he was dealing in politics. Buddha never entered in politics. So how you can compare with Buddha? His activities are different. His activity of false vibration(?), to stop all kinds of miseries of material world. That was his philosophy. He never dealt in politics. Although he was a king’s son, he never dealt in politics. You cannot... This is foolishness. We do not know. We do not study what is Buddha’s position, what is Gandhi’s position.

Paramahamsa: But still, everyone in India respects Gandhi so much. They have statues and everything.

Prabhupada: That is another thing. He was a good gentleman. He was very humble, meek. Because you have got some fault, that does not mean you have no qualities. That is another thing. But if you deal wrongly with something, then you must be called a foolish man. You may have very good qualities, but if you do not know how to deal with business, then you are foolish. He was mainly engaged in politics, but he did not know how to deal with politics. He was reading Bhagavad-gita and he was misleading people that in the Bhagavad-gita there is nonviolence. Just see. Because Arjuna wanted to become nonviolent the whole Bhagavad-gita was taught to him, how to become violent, and this rascal said that in the Bhagavad-gita there is nonviolence. It is not false? So a man preaching falsehood, is he a gentleman? Or he is a right man?
Paramahamsa: No.

Prabhupada: So that is his position. Either he is a foolish rascal or he is not a gentleman, falsely preaching Bhagavad-gita. That is his position. If you do not know a subject matter, why do you talk about it? Either you mislead or cheat or you are a foolish, you have no science. Similarly, here is a tape recorder, I do not know how the machine is working. If I talk about it authoritatively is it not my foolishness? I can talk about Bhagavad-gita or something else, but that does mean I know everything about this machine? But he did it like this. He was dealing in politics, and he took up as a mahatma, a religious man. That was his cheating.

Paramahamsa: So because people are so much in darkness about religion, therefore they say...

Prabhupada: Yes, everyone is in darkness. If you can make propaganda, the people will be misled. That is not very difficult. Just like from Russia, nobody is communist. But it is going on—the Russia is communist country. I have studied thoroughly. Nobody is communist. Maybe a few only. But it is going on by propaganda that Russia is a communist country. The people in general, they are forced to accept it. That book was written by some man, terrorism. It is terrorism. That’s it. By force. Nobody accepts this communist philosophy, I have studied. (everyone gets out of car) They were very, very unhappy. The young man cannot go out of the country. Just see. Restricted. How much uncomfortable he is feeling. Especially in European countries, the young men, they want to go. But they will not allow. They will not allow anything to read except Lenin’s literature. What is this? Simply suppressing. Everyone is unhappy. Which way? This way? This is their position. I have seen it directly. And as soon as one is suspected that he is doing otherwise, he will be sent to some unknown camp. Nobody knows where he has gone.

Paramahamsa: Just like they had some people who came to Russia to start some Buddhist thing, and then they were sent away to some camp, concentration camp.
Prabhupada: Never seen again.
Paramahamsa: No one has seen them.

Prabhupada: Just see. This is their... It is the most fallen country. No freedom. No freedom at all. Horrible country.

Ganesa: Why don’t the people revolt if they’re so unhappy?

Prabhupada: Yes, they are revolting, but they are now so much suppressed they cannot... Sometimes there is revolt. Sometimes there is upheaval.

Paramahamsa: Not a big upheaval because they are terrorized. They are afraid that if they revolt, then they...
Prabhupada: They will be killed.
Paramahamsa: Yeah, the government will come out and just shoot them all.

Prabhupada: Yes, all the Leninists and Stalinists, they kill. It is a country of terrorism. That’s all. The government men, they are simply terrorists. That’s all.

Paramahamsa: Just like in Cambodia they just, the new Communist government, they executed tens and thousands of people just recently.
Prabhupada: Just see.
Paramahamsa: People who were working for the old government. They just killed them all. So this what the people are afraid of.

Prabhupada: Yes. Terrorism. This Communism means terrorism. (aside:) Thank you.
Amogha: I have a garland, but it’s not finished. Almost...

Prabhupada: Communism means terrorism. That I have seen. I have studied personally. By threat, by pressure, that’s all. Nobody is communist in Russia.
Jayadharma: Is the whole world going to become Communist, Prabhupada? Or is the whole world going to become Krsna cons...

Prabhupada: Nobody is Communist, but if the demons are powerful, they will declare.
Paramahamsa: They will introduce it.
Prabhupada: They will not introduce; they will declare like that, falsely. That’s all.
Paramahamsa: Even in some countries where Communism has a very light influence, like in Thailand there’s a little bit of Communist influence, when they had a student revolt, the government came in with tanks and machine guns and immediately killed about three thousand students.
Prabhupada: In Thailand?
Paramahamsa: Yes. In Bangkok. That was about two years ago.
Prabhupada: Oh, just see.
Paramahamsa: So the people are very afraid to cause any upheaval. They are afraid that immediately the government will just come and kill them. ’Cause the government has all the weapons. They have the tanks and the guns and everything. And the normal people, they don’t have any weapons.

Prabhupada: This is the age of Kali-yuga. Therefore the only shelter is Krsna. There is no other way. In India it’s practically dwindling. Now there is no reason they are not sanctioning our temple. They do not give any reason. “No!” Why “No”? “We don’t give any reason.” And “Kirtana is nuisance, nuisance.” They are doing that already.

Srutakirti: Srila Prabhupada? For breakfast just fruits?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Srutakirti: Milk?
Prabhupada: No. You can... Cashew and ginger. And you make, what is called, channa. In the lunch make cheese. Cheese, cheese. Fry it, and make preparation.
Srutakirti: Tomato and cheese?
Prabhupada: Tomato, cheese, potato. Yes. And fried peanuts? And salad, fruit. By force... Communism is going on, by force. It is the result of sinful life.
Paramahamsa: They’re put into that circumstance.

Prabhupada: Yes, people are sinful, they will not do nicely, and now, by nature... Just like this child killing. They did it in his previous life. Now he is suffering. He will be killed. The nature’s reaction. We are taking sympathy with the child who is being killed, but we do not know that he did the same business. Now he is being killed. That is nature’s law.

Paramahamsa: The person who doesn’t know, he thinks that the child is innocent...

Prabhupada: Innocent child. He’s not innocent. He is sinful. He is being, what is called, chastised. Svakarma-phala-rupa-jiva. That is the word, svakarma. One suffers... (aside:) You can sit down here, just like... Everyone suffers the reaction of his own work. Svakarma-phala-rupa-jiva. Because he is a child, he takes sympathy, “Oh, such a small child is being killed.” We take it like that. It is that he is the potent criminal. Now he is being punished.

Paramahamsa: You were saying with all these wars. The people that are being killed are simply...

Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore those who are in high standard, they do not take anything as wrong. Everyone is suffering his own reaction. Then bhaktas, they think, tat te ’nukampam susamiksamano bhunjana evatma-krtam vipakam. When a devotee is in trouble, he thinks that “I am suffering for my past deeds. [break] ...me.” That is a devotee’s attitude. “Let me do my business, chant Hare Krsna.” And then he is sure. Such person is assured to come back. He doesn’t care for all this suffering. He thinks, “I am suffering for my past deeds. That’s all. Why shall I bother myself? Let me do my present duty, Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna.” That is the first-class position. He is assured. In spite of all material difficulties, if he goes on with chanting, then his chance is first. That is stated. Daya-bhak. Daya-bhak means he inherits God’s property as the son’s inherits the father’s property. Daya-bhak. So we should be callous with all these political, social... We should simply go on. That is Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He was callous. Family affairs, wife’s responsibility, for mother’s responsibility for... Nothing. Simply chant Hare Krsna. Kirtaniyah sada harih [Cc. adi 17.31]. That is Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s life. Even didn’t care for anything, no responsibility. “My only business is chanting.” That is... You preach for some time. Then you simply engage in chanting. Preaching means to make him strong, preaching, to become firmly convinced in Krsna consciousness. That is preaching. So when he is firmly convinced, then he can give up preaching and sit down and simply chant. Not in the beginning. That is imitation. He must be firmly convinced. So we have to study Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s life. Except—this is the clear and simple truth—except chanting Hare Krsna mantra, there is no other business of the human being. So this preaching is also chanting Hare Krsna mantra. This is preaching. That has been shown by all the disciples of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. All the Gosvamis, Haridasa Thakura and others, only did that, how to develop Krsna consciousness, no other business. That is sannyasa. He has no other business. To preach Krsna consciousness, to practice Krsna consciousness, to convince Krsna consciousness, that’s all, no other business. We don’t take part in politics, sociology, and mental speculation, “science,” or so on, so on, all nonsense. We reject, all kicked out. That is the perfection. It is simply waste of time. These are all superficial. Just like waves in the sea. Where is the meaning? The waves are going on. Oh, very nice. You collected all these flowers?
Amogha: Yes.
Prabhupada: Great service.