Monday, December 12, 2005

Following Scientific Athority

Morning Walk With Srila Prabhupada
December 12, 1975, Vrndavana

Prabhupada: ...sun globe. You explain to them.
Harikesa: We can see there’s life in the air, there are fishes in the water and birds in the air. And in the earth there are so many worms and crabs and things like that. We see life in these forms but why is it not true that we can see life in fire? We can’t see life in fire because we haven’t the experience. But because there’s life in...
Aksayananda: If you don’t have the experience, it doesn’t mean there’s no life.
Harikesa: Because there’s life...
Prabhupada: Hm? Hm?
Aksayananda: Because we have not experienced it doesn’t mean that there’s no life.
Prabhupada: Yes. That I have already explained. That, you’ll see in big, big factories, there is fire. Flame is coming. By seeing the flame, if you think there is no life, is that not nonsense?
Harikesa: Oh, you gave the example last night of...
Prabhupada: So many example. You go to the Tata iron factory, from distance you’ll see so many fire flames. Does it mean there is no life? That is nonsense.
Aksayananda: Another point is somebody had to light the fire.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Aksayananda: Somebody must have lit that fire. So similarly the light of the sun, who has started that light?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Aksayananda: Somebody has started that light, that fire.
Prabhupada: So in this way the nonsense scientists are going on. What do you think? Eh?
Harikesa: So this idea of friction causing electricity, so is electricity—this electrical energy—the source of fire? That’s what the scientists think sometimes too, that the lightning bolt came down and made a fire. And that was man’s first experience of fire as a caveman.
Aksayananda: So where did the lightning bolt come from?
Prabhupada: Yes. How the lightning was manufactured, rascal?
Harikesa: Well, there were some positive charges in the clouds and some negative charges in the ground.
Prabhupada: That’s alright. Who made that positive charge and negative charge?
Aksayananda: So let them manufacture lightning bolts in the Tata factory.
Prabhupada: How the electricity is produced unless there is some arrangement? Just put counter-argument and argument, try to understand. You have to preach. So your argument stopped?
Harikesa: I don’t know anything about this. (laughter)
Prabhupada: You cannot... Your malador masjid(?). Arguments are there, so whether there is life in the sun globe?
Indian man: (Hindi—discussion with Srila Prabhupada and other Indian men about sastra, scientists, agni, and the example of the iron factory)
Prabhupada: Jaya.
Devotees: Hare Krsna!
Harikesa: But the fire and the life is different in the Tata factory.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Harikesa: The fire is different from the life. The fire is produced.
Prabhupada: The fire is the same. There is fire. Fire is the same. In the life the fire is not different.
Harikesa: No, what I mean to say in the example, that the people are there and the fire is also there...
Prabhupada: Hm.
Harikesa: So, in a...
Prabhupada: Exactly the same way. In the factory there is big fire and there are workers also.
Harikesa: But the life is the workers not the fire.
Prabhupada: No. I mean to say, in the midst of fire, the living entity can live. That is my argument.
Aksayananda: But they can’t jump in the fire and live. They will die.
Prabhupada: No. That is material body. Spiritual... In the Bhagavad-gita there is, (it says that) it does not burn into fire, in the fire. Adahyah, adahyah. So living entity is never burnt. Even if he’s in the fire. So he may have a body of fire but he does not burn.
Aksayananda: But why should we accept that, because to make our factory we did not need Bhagavad-gita.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Aksayananda: To make our factory we did not need Bhagavad-gita.
Prabhupada: What is that?
Aksayananda: To make the factory... We have made such a nice factory for fire, so we did not need to consult Bhagavad-gita for that.
Prabhupada: I do not follow what he is saying.
Harikesa: He’s saying he built a factory but he didn’t use Bhagavad-gita to do it.
Prabhupada: So who says that without Bhagavad-gita you cannot ignite fire?
Aksayananda: So why should we accept that the living entity will not die.
Prabhupada: Oh, that is authority. If you do not accept, then this is the example, argument. That the factory surrounded by fire, it does not mean there is no life. From distance, you are seeing the sun from a very, very, 95 or 93 million miles away. Fiery it is undoubtedly, but it is exactly like that: that you see from a distant place, the iron factory, it is simply fiery. Your experience is from distance. You have not gone there. So the distance experience is like this, that you see there is fire, big fire, but still there are life. You have to accept this argument.
Harikesa: Actually it is perfectly reasonable.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Harikesa: In the fire there’s fiery bodies.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Harikesa: But then that must mean in the water there’s watery bodies.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Harikesa: And earth, earthy bodies.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is God’s creation. Take, take out one fish, within five minutes, he’ll die. And you put yourself in the water, within five minutes you will die. But you are living entity, he is also living entity. His external body is different, your external body is different.
Harikesa: But my body is ninety percent water.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Harikesa: My body is ninety per cent water. The scientists say that this material body is ninety percent water.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Harikesa: Human body. So I’ve got a watery body...
Prabhupada: Ninety percent water?
Harikesa: That’s what they say.
Prabhupada: They say. They are rascals. (laughter) So much bones and flesh and so many things, others. And ninety percent water.
Harikesa: Well, they take a cell and they say in the cell...
Prabhupada: "They take," they... Don’t quote them, they are all rascals. You come to your own reason. They say, then you accept them as authority. Then why don’t you accept authority of Bhagavad-gita, rascal? You are quoting some rascals and fools, and I am quoting from Bhagavad-gita. Then whose quotation is favorable? "They say." And when we say, "Krsna says," that is nothing! Just see, how foolish. "They say." These rascals, meat eaters, huh? Bachelor daddies, (laughter) they say something, that is authority. And (if) Krsna the Supreme Personality of Godhead says, (then) "Oh, that we cannot accept." Just see nonsense. That I... This argument I put forward with Professor Kotovsky that, "After all, we have to follow leader. So your leader is Lenin. And my leader is Krsna. So where is the difference between the process? You have to accept some authority. Now it is to be seen whether Lenin is perfect or Krsna is perfect. That is another thing, but you have to follow some authority. So you are stopped."
Harikesa: But in science...
Prabhupada: Again science.
Harikesa: No, as far as the process goes, they are very proud of the fact that there’s no authority.
Prabhupada: But why you are following? Why you are quoting Newton? You are quoting this scientist, that scientist, why you are quoting?
Harikesa: Well, Newton sat there, and saw the apple falling... Prabhupada: If you don’t follow authority, then why you quote so many previous scientists? What is the use of quoting if there is no authority?
Harikesa: But the trend is, because Newton speculated the law of gravity...
Prabhupada: No, no, first of all you settle up. Don’t go away from the point. (laughter) The point is that there is no need of authority. Then why you quote this scientist, that scientist? You stop this nonsense. There is no authority. Hm?
Harikesa: Yes.
Prabhupada: Hamsaduta?
Hamsaduta: Hm.
Prabhupada: If there is no authority, why do you quote so many rascals? Then come to reason, argument, that’s all. If you quote authority, I have got my authority.
Harikesa: So this fire... That makes sense.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Harikesa: This fire, it makes sense. That there’s life in fire.
Prabhupada: Yes. This is argument. When you do not accept authority, there must be reason and argument.
Harikesa: But this ether thing is very troublesome.
Prabhupada: Troublesome for you! (laughter)
Harikesa: Yes. You said sound is in the ether.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Harikesa: But I couldn’t understand how air...
Prabhupada: You have to gain that intelligence.
Harikesa: Yes.
Prabhupada: Sound is the proof that there is ether. Sabda. Now, I am talking, you are hearing. How you are hearing? Ethereal transportation. Otherwise how you can hear? I am talking here, and why you are hearing? This is ethereal. The sound is being produced, somehow or other the ether is passing, just (like) tele... What is called? Radio.
Harikesa: They heard, people on the earth, talking on the moon.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Harikesa: So it went through the air, it went through the space, sounds.
Prabhupada: The moon (astronaut) says that "There is no life." Then who is speaking? Nonsense. (laughter) They talk in the moon, and they hear from here, and "There is no life." And we have to take these authorities. (laughter)
Aksayananda: I remember once you said that we may not live in the water but that doesn’t mean there’s no such thing as a fish.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Aksayananda: So that is also a very good argument. I remember you gave that one.
Harikesa: So the air is coming from the ether, so...
Prabhupada: Because in the air there is sound. Therefore ether is there. It is a production of the ether.
Harikesa: So would it be beneficial to try to understand the process of production? Like the example of the earth coming from the water. Because the water evaporates, there is left over minerals and salts and all these things...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Harikesa: And the fire producing the water from excess heat. Like in the summer season and then the monsoon comes. And fire from air, from the friction generating electric current. But the air from the ether needs an example.
Prabhupada: Air from the ether because when the air blows, you find the sound, sshhhh. That is ether.
Hari-sauri: Yeah, like some...
Harikesa: But the example’s got to go the other way. From the ether comes the air.
Prabhupada: That you found out, example. But this is the proof there is ether within the air. That example is given many times in Bhagavad-gita.
Passerby: Haribol!
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna!
Hamsaduta: Does it mean beyond the ether there’s no sound?
Prabhupada: Beyond the ether there is mind, there is mind.
Hamsaduta: There’s no sound?
Prabhupada: No, what is the sound of the mind? Everyone knows you have mind, I have mind, but where is the sound of the mind?
Harikesa: There’s subtle and the gross has no realm in the subtle?
Prabhupada: Yes, that is finer.
Harikesa: So is that example of the space, then the thinner air, and the air, and the water, and the earth, and in between electricity...
Prabhupada: The grosser, grosser...
Harikesa: Is that a good example?
Prabhupada: Everything is coming from the subtle form, finer. Finer than the ether is the mind, and finer than the mind is intelligence.
Harikesa: Oh, and in the Bhagavatam it also says that because the universal form desired to hear, that sound was created and then the organ for hearing. Like that.
Prabhupada: That is also created.
Harikesa: So...
Prabhupada: Just like from ether, sound is created. Sabda, sparsa. Sabda, sparsa, rupa, rasa, gandhah, these are the five parmatra (?), object of sense perception. Budh, panca parmatra, ten senses, the mind, and three modes, the material nature. This is the ingredient of the whole creation.
Harikesa: So the basic element is the soul’s...
Prabhupada: Basic element is Krsna.
Harikesa: And then the spirit soul’s desire.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hamsaduta: And Krsna fulfills everyone’s desire.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hamsaduta: By manipulating the energy.
Harikesa: So the most subtle form...
Prabhupada: He is also... The living entity is creating different body for different enjoyment.
Hamsaduta: The living entity?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hamsaduta: But he can’t do it without Krsna.
Prabhupada: That is, he is subordinate.
Hamsaduta: Just like our hair grows, but we don’t know how it’s happening.
Prabhupada: It is sanctioned. Mattah sarvam pravartate. Everything from Krsna.
Harikesa: Is the most subtle form of creation the desire of the living entity to enjoy this material world?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Harikesa: And then Krsna...
Prabhupada: Supplies ingredients. Yes.
Harikesa: So that desire, that is equivalent, or is that the...
Prabhupada: A child wants to play, and the father and mother gives the toys for that play. So without getting help from the father and mother, the child cannot enjoy. Similarly, we may desire but unless Krsna helps us we cannot fulfill our desire.
Harikesa: Is desire a function of consciousness?
Prabhupada: Yes. Unless there is desire, how it is living? It is dead body. Stone, stone has no desire.
Harikesa: The spirit soul is...
Prabhupada: Therefore, spirit soul is described as superior energy. He desires and he manipulates the matter. Yayedam dharyate jagat.
Harikesa: It’s very logical, step by step by step by step. Actually when it’s seen from the point of view of the desire of the living entity, it makes perfect sense because he’s got these senses and the sound, and then in order to hear, there has to be a vehicle for the sound, and then there has to be an instrument. And then in order to touch there has to be the vehicle and the...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Harikesa: So therefore, from that point of view, it’s very logical.
Prabhupada: This is the point, you have to...
Harikesa: Trying to do it the other way is impossible. From the...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Harikesa: Empirical process?
Devotee: I don’t know if that’s the right word.
Harikesa: Inductive reasoning? Deductive reasoning. Impossible.
Prabhupada: Deductive reason is possible. Krsna says that na jayate na mriyate va. This is deductive: you hear from Krsna, and this is fact. And if you want to make research, how that living entity never takes birth, then it will take time and at the same it may not be perfect.
Harikesa: I finally understood why you were always talking to Svarupa Damodara about inductive and deductive reasoning.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Harikesa: Because it’s just not possible to go the other way.
Prabhupada: By inductive reason you cannot reach the truth perfectly.
Harikesa: Because it’s beyond the material creation and you have to use the material senses and mind to understand. It’s not possible.
Prabhupada: Therefore, our point is deductive. What Krsna says, that is perfect.
Harikesa: So first prove the existence of God and the existence of the spirit soul...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Harikesa: ...and then, they’ll just have to explain...
Prabhupada: And then it’s creation.
Harikesa: And that it’s creation. They’ll just have to accept they have desires.
Prabhupada: Aham evasam evagre. This is the Bhagavata’s first instruction to Brahma. Aham evasam agre. Agre means in the beginning. So in the beginning Krsna was there, then creation took place. Similarly in the beginning of this body, "I am spirit soul," was there. Then the body comes out. Similarly, Krsna is there, therefore the whole cosmic manifestation has come about. Aham evasam agre. And at the end of the creation, Krsna is there. Similarly at the end of this body, I am there. Again I’ll create another body. This is going on.
Harikesa: It’s Krsna’s trick just to give us this facility.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Harikesa: This is Krsna’s trick just to give us facility.
Prabhupada: And because I wanted it. Krsna doesn’t want it. But because you are rascals we wanted it. Krsna (says,) "Alright, do it."
Harikesa: So therefore, in the beginning Krsna gives you the big post, Brahma.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Harikesa: Now you’re in charge of creating a whole universe.
Prabhupada: Yes. If you want lord it over, "Alright you become Brahma." He gives so much facility.
Harikesa: And then this Brahma creates so many different desires, and then he goes through all the different bodies.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Aksayananda: Everyone becomes Brahma first?
Prabhupada: Hm? Yes. Or if you want to be a cat you can become.
Harikesa: How can they say this isn’t science? This is so incredible.
Prabhupada: Desire is there. Desire is there. Just like in your country, the nudism going on. The desire is, "Ah, I shall remain free, naked." So Krsna is giving you facility, "Alright, you stand here for thousands of years as tree, naked, nobody will criticize. You want to remain naked on the public street and you want to enjoy in that way, alright you become tree."
Harikesa: Because desire is a function of consciousness, which is a symptom of the spirit soul, it’s very powerful.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Harikesa: Because it’s spiritual actually.
Prabhupada: Therefore it is said, anyabhilasita-sunyam [BRS 1.1.11]. Abhilas means desire. Anya means "except service of Krsna." That is beginning of bhakti. As soon as he desires something material for enjoyment he has to come to Me. Manah sasthanindriyani prakrti-sthani karsati [Bg. 15.7]. The mind and the senses; with these things he is struggling for existence. Otherwise he is part and parcel of Krs..., mamaivamso jiva-bhutah jiva-loka sanatana [Bg. 15.7]. He is eternal but because he is influenced by the mind, desires, and the senses, sense enjoyment, he is struggling. This is it, a struggle. So when he is too much fatigued, Krsna comes and gives you good counsel. "You rascal give up these all desires. Surrender to Me, I give you protection." But he’ll not do that. And if he agrees then anyabhilasita-sunyam [BRS 1.1.11], all material desires, zero. Then bhakti begins. And if you have got a little pinch of material desires, then you have to accept different types of body. It will create, naturally. Karanam guna-sango ’sya. He is desiring under the influence of particular modes of nature, and he’s getting body.
Harikesa: One has to be very careful.
Prabhupada: Yes. Otherwise even a devotee like Bharata Maharaja, he had to accept the body of a deer. A little careless. Then nature’s law will act. Hm? If you do not become cautious and if you infect the smallpox disease, you have to suffer. Therefore a civilized man takes process, caution, "Oh there is smallpox disease, I shall not go there. Or if I go there, I must take vaccine." This is human civilization, caution. And if you are animal, you do not know. So human life means not animal life. Very reasonable, very cautious, educated, cultured, that is human life. Not animal life. Drink like animal, or eat like animal, have sex life like animal. Freedom, animal has got all freedom. So that freedom is not allowed to the human beings. That is civilization. The same example. The animal has got freedom and you’ll see in Indian market, vegetable market, some cow comes and eats, takes so many vegetables and eats, but he’s not going to the court. But if you take one small piece of chili without, then you’ll go to the court. So therefore, law is meant for human beings, not for the animals. Those who want to be free, they are animals. So-called freedom means animalism. That is not humanism. Humanism means to follow the rules and regulations and the laws, and then he is human being. Because law is meant for the human being, not for the animals. And when you come out from your home, immediately the law is keep to the right. And if you violate, immediately you go to the law. But a dog, he doesn’t care. If you say, "A dog does not obey this law," that is no excuse. You are human being. If you don’t obey then you go to jail. So many animals are on the street naked, they’re having sex life, naked. You do, immediately you’ll be prosecuted. Why? Because you are a human being. You have to restrain. Even if you like. Just like the Hawaii University students, "What is the wrong to become a dog?" So if you think like that then you become a dog, nature is ready to give you a dog’s body. That is (Sanskrit). He’s thinking, "The dog’s life is very nice. This liberation of sex life on the street." "Alright, you take dog’s body." Yam yam va... Bhavam... ah, what is that?
Harikesa: Smaran bhavam.
Prabhupada: Ha. Tyajanty ante kalevaram.
Caitya-guru: Tam tam evaiti kaunteya.
Prabhupada: Ha. "So you are thinking like dog, alright you take the body of a dog." And finished. Your human life is finished. And again wait for millions of years to come to the human form of life. Nature’s law you cannot check. Daivi hi esa guna-mayi mama maya duratyaya. The law is there. The same example, if you contaminate some disease, the law is you must suffer from that disease. So they are thinking "free." That is their gross ignorance.
Hari-sauri: It’s very important then to accept some tapasya.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Hari-sauri: It’s very important to accept some tapasya to purify your desires.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes, that is, that requires tapasya. Tapo divyam. Tapasya means to purify the desire. Tat paratvena nirmalam. Therefore if you simply keep your desires to the service of Krsna, you become purified.
Passerby: (singing) Govinda hari, gopala. Harer jaya jaya, prabhu dina dayala hari.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna!
Passerby: (carries on singing on his way) Govinda jaya, gopala jaya...
Prabhupada: This declaration of freedom is animal. Animal freedom.
Passerby: Hare Krsna, Hare Rama.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna! Thank you. They are struggling for false freedom. This is not freedom. This is becoming entangled. And when we voluntarily give up all freedom, "This is all nonsense! Krsna, I surrender unto you." Bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan [Bg. 7.19], then he’s really wise. When he fully surrenders to Krsna.
Caitya-guru: Then he knows, Vasudevah sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19].
Prabhupada: Yes. Otherwise how he’ll surrender. He must be convinced that Krsna is everything, so let me surrender to Krsna. Then he is wise. Otherwise he is an animal.
Harikesa: A really wise person could understand that there’s no choice but to surrender.
Prabhupada: Yes. He must. He is already under the control.
Harikesa: He’s always controlled at every moment.
Prabhupada: Yes. But he’s... He prefers to be controlled by the laws of nature instead of by Krsna. That is his misfortune. He is controlled, but he thinks, "I am free." That is ignorance. Mudha. Just like I am the state citizen. I am not free. I must work according to the state laws. But he (thinks), "I shall... I don’t care for government." That is my foolishness. You have to care. At home I can say to my wife, "I don’t care for government, I don’t care for the police." But when there is crime, when the police comes, then he says "Ohh." (pulls a sad face—laughter) He can be very much proud before his wife, "I don’t care for anything." But when the police comes, "What can I do?" (Hindi) There is an example that the, what is called, murgi? What you call? Toast? No. Host? No. What is called? Murgi, murgi? Chicken? The male, male?
Aksayananda: Rooster.
Hamsaduta: Rooster.
Prabhupada: Rooster?
Woman: Cock?
Prabhupada: Yes. So the, when in the morning, it is let loose, then he says, "I don’t care for any hahaa, cawcaw." Then in the evening, when they are pushed into the, that what is called? Nest? "Cawcawcawcaw. Whatever you like you can do, whatever you like you can do." (laughter) This is the example. You see? When he’s under the arrest, "Now sir, whatever you like, you do with me. If you like you can excuse me." (laughter) And when he’s out, "I don’t care for anyone." Murgi intelligence. Rooster intelligence. This is our proposal. "I don’t care for anyone. I am God." Murgi logic. Harav abhaktasya kuto mahad-guna mano rathenasati dhavato bahih [SB 5.18.12], if one is not a devotee, his only business is to remain on the mental platform and concoct things. And at the end he thinks that "I am God." Concoction. Therefore it is said in the sastra, harav abhaktasya kuto mahad-guna [SB 5.18.12]. One who is not a devotee, he has no good qualification. He is simply on the, hovering on the mental platform.
Hari-sauri: The sixteenth chapter describes it very nicely...
Prabhupada: Yes. Pravrttim ca nivrttim ca, na vidur asurah. In which way we have direct out activities, in which way we shall have to stop our activities: they do not know. Asurah jana. Because they don’t take direction from God. They make their own way of speculation. So therefore, they are animals, or demons. Because they do not take direction during life, therefore at the end Krsna comes, mrtyuh sarva-haras caham. All mental speculation, creation, is taken away at death. (to passerby:) Hare Krsna! It is said, krsna nama koro vai ar sabe miche palaiba patha nai yama ache piche: take to Krsna consciousness, don’t try to escape. Because behind you there is Yamaraja! (laughs) He will finish your all concoction. Hare Krsna! (end)

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